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Discussion Starter #1
I was at the gun show and picked up some 40+p 155g JHP. What do you guys think about this load? Is this a good personal defense load?
 

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First off who's the manufacturer, and secondly there is no official +p loads for a .40s&w, so either they are just saying that as a sales ploy or something...
 

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Doing a google search I've found mention of +p 40 cal claims but I cant find any pressure test to prove the claims. Sounds fishy to me as well
 

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There is no SAAMI specification for .40 +p ammunition. Since your M&P is only designed and warranted for SAAMI-specification ammunition, that should tell you everything you need to know.



I'd definitely be interested to know the name of the manufacturer.
 

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.40 +p sounds fishy to me as well. If they're reloads I woudn't use them for self defense. Last thing you need is some prosecuter saying you used suped up bullets that you had made more leathal than factory ones. To be honest I don't use anyones reloads...accidents happen and I would hate to have a double or triple load go off.
 

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Buffalo Bore lists some .40S&W as being +P...



155gr. Speer UniCore @ 1300 fps (582 ft. lbs.) Taurus PT100 (4.9 inch barrel) = 1249 fps





Double Tap has some that appears to be even hotter:



1310fps 590 ft/lbs from a 4.5"bbl.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Its from Georgia Arms. According to the manual the M&P can handle +p. The ammo clams 1200fps. The brass looks very clean and I have hand checked all the primers. They look good. Gold dot jhp.
 

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Winchester Ranger 155 grain JHPs ran 1199 fps from the 4" barrel of my Steyr M40. It looks like the "+P" part is just advertising hype.
 

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dabiggat said:
According to the manual the M&P can handle +p.
In 9mm and .45 only. Like we said, there is no .40 +p so the manual is not giving this the green light.
 

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dabiggat said:
Its from Georgia Arms. According to the manual the M&P can handle +p. The ammo clams 1200fps. The brass looks very clean and I have hand checked all the primers. They look good. Gold dot jhp.


I have a friend who has shot over 1000 rds of this. The packaging on his reads that it is only 1150fps though. I bought a bag of 50 today to kill some fruit with but I probably won't depend on it for self defense.
 

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Dude, +p refers to pressure not velocity. The two are not directly interchangeable, if they were the .45 ACP could never exceed 600 fps.



Also, two months ago "The Guy" at Georgia Arms replied in an e-mail;



"Thank you for asking about our 40 ammo. The ammo is not a new product for us, we have been loading these rounds since the mid 90's. The brass is new and is assembled with the Speer Gold Dot bullets. The pressure is above SAAMI spec with the +p @ 36,000 PSI and the +p+ @ 38,000 PSI. ( standard pressure is 35,000 PSI ) I have fired both these rounds in a M&P with no problems. I do feel that the +p+ round would shorten the life of the gun if it was fired in excess. The 155 +p has 1200 FPS and 496 FPE while the 155 +p+ has 1300 FPS and 582 FPE. ...shipping... . Thanks again. Curtis"



Saami spec:

9mm 35,000

9mm +p 38,500

.40S&W 35,000



So, wouldn't you think that .40S&W+p at only 36,000 might be a conservative step? But then again, there are reports that suggest the 35,000 PSI SAAMI pressure specification could kaBOOM! a Glock G22 .40S&W.



This as NOT an endorsement, I submit it only as a casual conversation between a couple of guys. But DANG, almost 600 FP of energy from a .40 Short & Wimpy, that'll leave a mark.
 

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I'd be extrememly reluctant to fire such a round in a glock, but not so much in an M&P. The M&P has a lot more chamber support. My main question is why you'd need such a round for SD. The only people calling the 40 "Short and Weak" are 10mm people that I suspect will always feel they're under-gunned. The 10mm is a respectable round, but I doubt there's a lot of difference between a 180gr cruising along at 1000fps and one at 1200fps. You might get a bit more penetration with the 10mm, but in most SD shoots, that's exactly what you don't want. I'd also have concerns that a bullet that is designed to expand and retain it's structure at 1000fps might fragment at the higher speed.



Not to mention it hammers the gun.
 

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Since I have more time on my hands than I know what to do with, I will reply. This isn't profound wisdom, just the ramblings of an arrogant putz who thinks he knows something.



FieroCDSP said:
The only people calling the 40 "Short and Weak" are 10mm people that I suspect will always feel they're under-gunned.


The reason they call it "Wimpy" is because 400-450 FPE is common for .40S&W and 600-650 FPE is what you can expect from 10mm. I was wondering if anyone would notice. :wink:



As for your reasoning about the effectiveness of "more power" and it's relation to Self Defense:



FieroCDSP said:
My main question is why you'd need such a round for SD... The 10mm is a respectable round, but I doubt there's a lot of difference between a 180gr cruising along at 1000fps and one at 1200fps.


If you mean there is little difference between 400 FPE and 600 FPE I have to ask, do you really believe that?



The developers of the .40S&W didn't look to a smaller round because they thought it would be just as effective as the 10mm. Fact of the matter is that back in the '80s a 650 FPE load in 10mm was devastating but was perceived to be too powerful for many FBI agents to handle. The FBI adopted a 400 FPE sub-sonic load primarily to make follow up shots more accurate by reducing kick and muzzle rise, but also to keep down the muzzle blast and arguably the super-sonic crack. The result was referred to as a "10mm lite". Then in the '90s some enterprising individual at S&W observed that you could shorten the case, use a "10mm lite" load and fit it all into current production 9mm frames. Thus .40S&W was born.



While the .40S&W is generally described as being "snappy" the 10mm is more of a "brutal". If the .40S&W had been developed first, the 10mm would have most certainly been called a .40 magnum. Or maybe .40 Long & Powerful. 8)



FieroCDSP said:
You might get a bit more penetration with the 10mm, but in most SD shoots, that's exactly what you don't want. I'd also have concerns that a bullet that is designed to expand and retain it's structure at 1000fps might fragment at the higher speed.


Bullet design being the same, higher velocity tends to result in a faster more violent expansion. I would be more concerned about the lack of performance to drive a bullet at <1000 FPS when it was designed to enter at 1200+ FPS. Speer designed the "short barrel" version of their Gold Dot bullet for just that scenario. BTW, fragmentation and over-penetration were not reasons for reducing the 10mm, it was an accommodation for folks who found it hard to manage. If over penetration is a predominant concern you need to consider a more strategic solution because when the blood gets pumping you are MUCH more likely to miss than to over-penetrate.
 
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