[tglee]

I spent the last few days logging the serial numbers and checking 134 new duty weapons. The serial numbers ranged from MPZ38xx to MPZ53xx. They all had 9 dots molded in the dust cover. Where my older MPF gun is marked rev. N. Also, the end of the guide rods are not round like the first ones we received. They appear to be more of an octagonal shape. The magazine releases look the same as first batch. I have to change 5 over for left handed shooters, so I will get closer look when that gets done. All 402 magazines have black followers.



I'll be issuing these out in January. I'll keep you posted with a range report after they qualify with them.

 

[tigs40cal]

My 9mm has octagonal rod end my 40 has round. Sounds like you got the latest models. Must be nice to get to play with all those guns :wink:

 

[choochboost]

FWIW, the gray followers are for 9mm only.

 

[mad212]

They did change the follower for the .40 though, first ones had a straight edge where it meets the slide lock, the new ones have a 45 degree angle to them.

 

[MTech]

what changed from Rev N to O?

 

[K]

tglee,



Let me know how your PD's transition goes. We went through ours in Nov 06 and we have had great success with ours. PM me if you have any questions.



K

 

[Heatho]

I spent the last few days logging the serial numbers and checking 134 new duty weapons. The serial numbers ranged from MPZ38xx to MPZ53xx. They all had 9 dots molded in the dust cover. Where my older MPF gun is marked rev. N. Also, the end of the guide rods are not round like the first ones we received. They appear to be more of an octagonal shape. The magazine releases look the same as first batch. I have to change 5 over for left handed shooters, so I will get closer look when that gets done. All 402 magazines have black followers.



I'll be issuing these out in January. I'll keep you posted with a range report after they qualify with them.

You must have one of the best jobs ever!

 

[tglee]

Heatho-



A few weeks out of the year I actually get to do something I enjoy.





K-



After we tested the sample S&W sent us, we purchased 13 for our instructors. So, I have had mine for about 1 year. Out of the original 13, 1 had mag drop issues but that has been corrected and they have held up well otherwise. I have a concern regarding the Winchester SXT 165gr JHP duty ammo we currently use. The vast majority of ammo I have shot since receiving this gun, at training classes and IDPA matches has been WWB and that feeds perfectly. When qualifying with the JHP, myself and other instructors have experienced several Failures to feed. The nose of the round will get hung up on the bottom edge of the ramp. This has happened with the first round after a slide lock reload and also in the middle of a course of fire halfway through a magazine. With everyone shooting JHPs in January we will see if this becomes a common problem.



What weapon did you transition from? We had S&W 4056TSWs that had a 12+ pound DOA trigger. This gun is going to be a whole new world for them.

 

[G56]

I'm sure you know that sometimes guns will show a preference or a problem with a particular ammo, if this continues you probably need to look for a more dependable round for use in the M&P, not that the ammo is bad, the M&P might not like it.



Mine has fed fine with everything I've used, but that's only about 5 or 6 variations, and there are a lot more combinations than that.

 

[ToddG]

tglee -- Having dealt with these kinds of problems many times from the other side of the fence, let me ask you some questions:

• Have you spoken with your local S&W LE rep about this?
  
• Have you spoken to your local Winchester LE rep about this?
  
• Have you tried any other JHP ammunition in the guns? If so, did they experience any stoppages?
  
• What training/FMJ ammunition are you using? Is it the same bullet weight and velocity as the JHPs which are causing the stoppages?
  
• Have you measured the ammo to make sure it is within SAAMI specification, at least in terms of OAL? A cartridge gauge is a great and inexpensive tool for a department to have on hand.
  
• Have the guns been cleaned, lubricated, and maintained per manufacturer's recommendations? (I know this is a dumb question, but you'd be amazed how often the answer is "no")
  
• Approximately how many rounds have been through the guns that are experiencing the problem?
  
• Has anyone done anything to modify or otherwise "improve" the pistols, such as polishing the feed ramps, or are they still in stock from-the-factory condition?
  
  • 
    
    
    
    G56 is right, sometimes a particular gun (or even model of gun) will have problem with a particular cartridge or bullet design. But in my experience, if it's a major gun manufacturer (like Smith) and a major ammo manufacturer (like Winchester) they will work together to fix any such incompatibility ... after first pointing the finger at one another.
    
    
    
    
    Hope you can get the issue addressed before the guns are in the hands of the troops and their confidence in the new sidearm gets shaken.

 

[tglee]

Have you spoken with your local S&W LE rep about this?



Have you spoken to your local Winchester LE rep about this?

No, not yet. There has been about 8 FTFs in 3000 rounds fired with this ammo. At this point, I have not ruled out the possibility of bullet set back from cambering the same rounds over and over causing the problem. I think the cartridge gauge is a great idea. If and when this happens again I will save the round and scrutinize it very closely.

Have you tried any other JHP ammunition in the guns? If so, did they experience any stoppages?

No, all we have in the armory is 60,000 rounds of the Winchester.

What training/FMJ ammunition are you using? Is it the same bullet weight and velocity as the JHPs which are causing the stoppages?

We use Winchester USA white box FMJ 165gr with a muzzle velocity of 1060fps. The SXT 165gr ammo is rated at 1140fps.

Have the guns been cleaned, lubricated, and maintained per manufacturer's recommendations?

Yes.

Approximately how many rounds have been through the guns that are experiencing the problem?

This varies widely. But I would say a 3000 round average. All the guns function flawlessly with the JHP ammo.

Has anyone done anything to modify or otherwise "improve" the pistols, such as polishing the feed ramps, or are they still in stock from-the-factory condition?

No. They are all stock from the box.





Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[ToddG]

No, not yet. There has been about 8 FTFs in 3000 rounds fired with this ammo. At this point, I have not ruled out the possibility of bullet set back from cambering the same rounds over and over causing the problem. I think the cartridge gauge is a great idea. If and when this happens again I will save the round and scrutinize it very closely.

]



8 in 3,000 is a really bad number.



From the department's standpoint, that's far, far too many stoppages (MRBS of 375). From a manufacturer's standpoint, it means the typical "we fired a box of ammo through the gun and it was fine" might lead them to believe there isn't a problem when there is. If you don't mind me butting in a bit, I'd keep a digital camera or camera-phone lying around so the next time it happens you can get pictures of the gun and as good a close-up of the actual stoppage as possible. I know it sounds stupid, but in my experience photos of problems tend to get better attention than just verbal reports.



(then again, I've never had a formal complaint with either Winchester or Smith, so your experience may be great and none of this will be necessary)



The setback possibility is definitely worth looking into. Setback with a 165gr isn't as dangerous as with a 180gr, but it's still not good ... especially if it's enough to keep the gun from functioning. Depending on your department's budget, it might be worth establishing a policy that the round in the chamber (duty ammo) is the first round fired at a practice session. You put a mag of practice FMJ in the gun, but you don't take the live JHP out of the chamber. FWIW, this is what I do every time I go to the range.

• It prevents the possibility of bullet setback.
  
• It allows me to verify ammo function constantly (this means more then you're shooting 2-3 times per week totaling 100-150 rounds a year as opposed to a department which might only qualify twice per year).
  
• It reduces the potential AD situation involved in the administrative unloading and loading of the gun before a practice session.
  • 
    
    
    
    

    We use Winchester USA white box FMJ 165gr with a muzzle velocity of 1060fps. The SXT 165gr ammo is rated at 1140fps.

    
    
    Doesn't sound like cause for a problem there, at least to me.
    
    
    
    

    Thanks for the suggestions.

    
    
    No problem. Hope you guys get everything sorted out. Keep us in the loop!

 

[tglee]

...Hope you guys get everything sorted out. Keep us in the loop!

Last week a 134 Officers qualified with their new M&P40s. With a total of 15,350 Winchester SXT JHP rounds fired. There was one malfunction. It was the same failure to feed as we had experienced before. However, this time I was able to carefully examine the round. It was significantly shorter then it should have been. I explained this to the shooter and used it as an opportunity to impress upon all of them the importance of examining their ammo.



Other then that one round, everything else worked perfectly and the Officers were all happy with their new guns.

 

[G56]

 

[DM-SC]

Ya have to love it when it all works out! 8)