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Last Updated: Friday, 22 December 2006, 11:46 GMT



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Man fights to keep bullet in head



Mr Bush's lawyers say removal would infringe civil rights

A search warrant has been issued in the US for a potentially vital clue to a violent crime - a bullet lodged in a teenager's head.

Texan prosecutors want the bullet, embedded under the skin in 17-year-old Joshua Bush's forehead, to be removed.



They say it could help convict Mr Bush of the attempted murder of a used-car salesman in a row following a robbery.



The case has raised privacy concerns, with Mr Bush's lawyers fighting to have the bullet remain in his head.



'Big old knot'



Prosecutors say the 9mm bullet became lodged in the soft fatty tissue in Mr Bush's forehead in a shootout with the car salesman.



Police say Alan Olive returned fire after Mr Bush tried to shoot him.



I just can't believe I missed him at that distance



Alan Olive, businessman



They say Mr Bush was part of a gang that had tried to take cars from the forecourt.



Identified to police by other gang members, Mr Bush was interviewed.



Mr Olive, a competitive pistol shooter, said a man returned after the police had investigated, threatening to kill him if he gave evidence. The shootout followed.



"I just can't believe I missed him at that distance," Mr Olive says in court papers.



Prosecutor Ramon Rodriguez told Associated Press news agency that Mr Bush "looked like hell. He had a big old knot on his forehead".



Mr Rodriguez said Mr Bush later said he was hit by a stray bullet while on his couch in his flat.



A judge issued a warrant for the bullet's removal in October but a doctor said he did not have the proper tools.



A second operation was ordered for last week at a hospital but that was postponed for unspecified reasons.



Now Mr Bush's lawyers say the removal would be a denial of his civil rights, although the surgery would not be life threatening.



The lawyers base their case on the constitution's protection against unreasonable searches.



Rife Kimler, Mr Bush's lawyer, told AP: "When the medical profession divorces itself from its own responsibility and makes itself an arm of the state, it's a dangerous path."
 

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This is a real freakish occurence, normally seen in ricochets or small calibers like 22 rimfires, a bullet that doesn't penetrate the skull but instead slips between the skin and the skull. It's rare but it does happen from time to time.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
G56 said:
This is a real freakish occurence, normally seen in ricochets or small calibers like 22 rimfires, a bullet that doesn't penetrate the skull but instead slips between the skin and the skull. It's rare but it does happen from time to time.


I think that guy used up a couple of his nine lives.
 

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Geez, I've seen this story on 2 other boards. I wouldn't blame the 9mm for this. In fact, the story says the guy was a target shooter. He most likey used target loads. We also don't know if that bullet was slowed down in some way (going through glass, etc). It could have been a really light target load. Or the punk kid could have been quite a ways away. We don't know. But I would hardly use this story as an argument that 9mm's are not a good defense round. They are extremely good defensive rounds. And that isn't just me saying it. Here's a real world example:



http://dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=d...1214-A1-02.html



Sure, the 9mm isn't as big as a .40 or .45, but that doesn't mean it's weak. A .45 is a like a Claymore sword, big, deadly, and heavy. But you can't swing it around quickly easily. A 9mm is more like a Katana, light and small, but very deadly, and easy for quick multiple strikes.
 

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Prosecutors say the 9mm bullet became lodged in the soft fatty tissue in Mr Bush's forehead in a shootout with the car salesman.

Maybe a criminal "fathead" is better at stopping bullets than other heads. He had to be hard-headed, too, right?

I have seen documentation and one or two personal observations of instances in which a bullet striking a skull does a weird thing...following the curve of the skull inside or out, bouncing off due to the angle, etc. I've also seen a couple of straight in shots that did the trick. I don't recall the calibers, but I strongly agree that things like angle of incidence, possibility that it was a ricochet, or the other factors cited by MP4ME are important and unknown variables. Heck, it might just be a fragment or sliver of the bullet.
 

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sheepdog said:
Maybe a criminal "fathead" is better at stopping bullets than other heads. He had to be hard-headed, too, right?


That's what I was thinking. LOL
 

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LockNLoad said:
[quote name='sheepdog']Maybe a criminal "fathead" is better at stopping bullets than other heads. He had to be hard-headed, too, right?


That's what I was thinking. LOL
[/quote]



I think that's what we all are thinking.
 

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9mm not penetrating skull

A US marshall who taught a women's handgun self-defense class I attended back in the 90's told us the inside details of a case that was high profile in Pittsburgh.



A police officer got his finger (because of wedding ring) caught in the back door of a car and was being dragged at high speed down the street. He managed to draw his handgun and was firing in to the car. He managed to kill two in the car, but the driver was struck in the head with the 9mm and it went under the skin and just followed the bone around the head instead of penetrating.



The officer survived after falling free but with severe leg injuries (like most if his skin removed).



Oh and the stupid relatives of the dead guys got on TV with Geraldo Rivera (with MSNBC then) and claimed their poor boys were victims of the cop who they were dragging at speeds estimated at 80mph+.
 

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seems about right...criminal can sue! whats the world coming to?
 

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sheepdog said:
Prosecutors say the 9mm bullet became lodged in the soft fatty tissue in Mr Bush's forehead in a shootout with the car salesman.

.


I have plenty of "soft fatty tissue", but none of it is in my head.
 

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BSTOCK said:
A search warrant has been issued in the US for a potentially vital clue to a violent crime - a bullet lodged in a teenager's head.

Texan prosecutors want the bullet, embedded under the skin in 17-year-old Joshua Bush's forehead, to be removed.






Oh no the bad guys have evolved and can absorb bullets now!!!
 

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sheepdog said:
Prosecutors say the 9mm bullet became lodged in the soft fatty tissue in Mr Bush's forehead in a shootout with the car salesman.

Maybe a criminal "fathead" is better at stopping bullets than other heads. He had to be hard-headed, too, right? .


I work at a US Penitentiary with max custody inmates. we have our share of homicides (inmate on inmate) however one thing that is ironic, funny or whatever is. Those thugs can get shot, stabbed and beat to a pulp and they almost never die. Like a cat with 9 lives. We have a lot of gimps limping up and down the corridor with rounds of every caliber in them from either an encounter with Police or criminal associates. The poor police officer gets hit by that one stray where he is not protected by his vest.
 

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It is not a 9mm problem, it is a handgun caliber problem. They all pretty much suck for stopping a threat.



I remember not too long ago a bad guy was shot 20+ times with several officer's duty .40's and lived.



Flip a coin, like what you get.
 

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Powered by Diesel said:
It is not a 9mm problem, it is a handgun caliber problem. They all pretty much suck for stopping a threat.



I remember not too long ago a bad guy was shot 20+ times with several officer's duty .40's and lived.



Flip a coin, like what you get.


Don't know if this is the same story, but a similar situation happened in the Bay Area. Cop shot a guy 12 times with a .40 caliber, the the bad guy was on the ground, but was still shooting back. When backup arrived, bad guy was shot another 8 times before he gave up. Yep, he lived too.



This is why I prefer JHP's. Sadly, many leo's aren't allowed to use that kind of round if I understand correctly. Any added advantage, no matter how small, is still an added advantage. People (bad guys anyways), are often hopped up on speed, or some other drug that keeps them from feeling pain. Add that to rage and adrenalin, you get a pretty nasty combination.



But, to pick on the 9mm as a weak round, is still not something I agree to at all. Weird things happen. Ever hear of stories where a drunk driver causes an accident where innocent victims are killed, but the drunk driver walks away with just a few scratches? Same thing. Strange things happen.
 

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It is not a 9mm problem, it is a handgun caliber problem. They all pretty much suck for stopping a threat.
There it is in a nutshell, I think, and others have said it . The next poster put s it another way-in so many words, it isn't bad bullets, it's bad guys.

MP4ME, I personally don't know of any agencies stateside that don't allow if not mandate JHPs these days, but if you are in California or some other foreign country, you may have different info.
 

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sheepdog said:
It is not a 9mm problem, it is a handgun caliber problem. They all pretty much suck for stopping a threat.
There it is in a nutshell, I think, and others have said it . The next poster put s it another way-in so many words, it isn't bad bullets, it's bad guys.

MP4ME, I personally don't know of any agencies stateside that don't allow if not mandate JHPs these days, but if you are in California or some other foreign country, you may have different info.


I was playing it safe when I said that. I read somewhere that some places do not allow LEO's to use JHP's. Yep, I (unfortunately) live in California. I plan to move to America soon though.
 

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well MP4ME...dont move to ILLINOIS...itll be that bad here before long...lol
 

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Handgun bullets do funny things in both JHP and FMJ form, in jell they might reliably do one thing well, in real life flip a coin. Bullets might richochet off bones, they may not penetrate thick organs, they might hit a vital and the bad guy can still hang in a fire fight, they might drop blubbering to the ground, they might not even know they have been shot until after the fight is over, and they might laugh it off if on drugs or alcohol.



I have seen police video of guys getting doubletapped through the heart with a .40 G22 and managed to fire off another mag and run several blocks before they finally died. I have seen a single .22 from a derringer drop a victim like a sack of potatoes, .380 shots that did not penetrate past the skin, .380 shots that did penetrate and stop the threat, and just about every service caliber either stop the threat or didn't.



Everyone touts shot placement and for the most part this is true, however as mentioned above a doubletap to the heart is no guarantee that the threat will stop right away. I have seen stock footage of a .45 perfectly placed COM have no effect on a bad guy until they bleed out minutes later, I have seen a .32acp hit a pelvis that dropped the bad guy right away, even though he lived he was in so much pain he could not continue on in the fight, however the guy hit with a .45 COM did die but lived long enough to get off several more rounds before death.



I like to watch the police video shows, and the extreme video shows, I am surprised how often they show shootouts but never the less it is great to watch to get a real world idea how bullets really do and how silly caliber debates really are.
 
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