[997GT3]

I have two (2) M&Ps and both have the same issue. The angle of the barrel ramp is far too steep. I can lock the slide to the rear and inser a loaded magazine (pick the brand of ball or JHP ammo - it doesn't seem to matter). If I just depress the slide stop the slide will remove the round from the follower, slam it into the feedramp and force the round into the breech. You definitely are aware of the crashing cartridge both audibly and feeling the double hit with the hand that is holding the pistol. If I take hold of the slide and walk it down I can actually capture the cartridge (i.e., nose pressed tightly against the feed ramp. I highly polished one and only removed the oxide coating on the other.



I've not ever been able to accomplish this feat with a Glock, H&K or Sig (especially the Sig as the round seems to sit a bit higher for a direct shot (pun intended) into the chamber to enhance reliability].



When firing the pistol one isn't aware of this, but one would have to think that this is an oversight that could/should be remedied.



Any evidence/observations (anecdotal or otherwise)?

 

[matt7184]

I've seen tons of guns do this with JHP (including all the ones you've mentioned). That's what the feed ramp is for. It is not an issue if the gun feeds fine while you shoot it.

 

[raz-0]

Uhhh it works. Why is a working pistol an oversight? If it doesn't cause the bullet to setback into the cartridge, it's fine.



Is it distorting the holowpoint cavity?



SLOOOOOWWWWLLY riding the slide forward is not normal operation, so what can be done in that case is irrelevant. Like matt7184, I have been able to replicate the same behaior on other guns. Heck, I have been able to replicate the behavior with FMJ on some guns. There's a reason you don't ride the slide forward.

 

[997GT3]

Both of you miss the point entirely. Ball ammo will do this - and it will do it with every M&P I've seen. This phenomena does NOT occur with the so-called paragons of reliability: USPs, Glocks and Sigs.



Speaking as an engineer it's an oversight. A handgun is an "oh ****!" tool and reliability is paramount. Any contact with the slide while firing the pistol can cause a misfeed due to the phenomena mentioned. And, no, you cannot say, "I won't shoot it like that" because you don't know if firing the pistol to save your life will require you to shoot the pistol in a very wierd, non-indoor-range-friendly manner. The pistol is inherently more sensitive in this manner than some of the others.

 

[Jester]

I think someone is paranoid, and over reacting..



My fathers USP shoots and feels the same as my M&P. I get the same "chunk-chunk" when I load his as I do mine.



I'm a CNC programmer, and know engineering, very well. I don't want to get into a pissing contest, but it seems as though your bringing other weapons into it that don't need to be.



Question is: Do you have any failures to feed? If not then put your hat back on and be happy.

 

[matt7184]

Any evidence/observations (anecdotal or otherwise)?

That's exactly what I and raz-0 did. We gave you our experiences with the issue you ask. Maybe some of the popular gunsmiths on this forum would be willing to chime in as well.

This phenomena does NOT occur with...

You claim the phenomena does not occur with the above. If I show you one USP, Glock, Sig, that blows your absolute claim. And who says those are the "paragons" of reliability?



The point is not missed. You expect the round to go directly into the chamber making the whole point of a feed ramp irrelevant. Good luck finding a handgun that does this. Take a USP, Sig, etc, remove the feed ramp and then get back to me on how it feeds.

Any contact with the slide while firing the pistol can cause a misfeed due to the phenomena mentioned. And, no, you cannot say, "I won't shoot it like that" because you don't know if firing the pistol to save your life will require you to shoot the pistol in a very wierd, non-indoor-range-friendly manner. The pistol is inherently more sensitive in this manner than some of the others.

I'm confused. What contacting with the slide? You mean the round contacting the feed ramp or your hand contacting the slide?

:?



PS, you don't think Smith and Wesson has any engineers or gunsmiths who have looked over the design? :roll:

 

[997GT3]

Just stay out of harm's way, boys, and you'll never have to worry about any of this...





The ogive will OBVIOUSLY contact the ramp, but show me a quality 9 mm pistol design where you can have the nose of the round PINNED to the feed ramp...



My P226 NSW-9s won't. Neither will the P7M8s. The Glock 19 won't.



It is a feed RAMP not a Feed Heavyside Step Function. It shouldn't be this way. No one (or any corporation, for that matter) is perfect. Just check out your own pistol if you care to. Or not as the case may be.

 

[raz-0]

The M&P (and the sigma), have some of the most direct feeding paths of any handgun. Ceratinly more than a USP, which I owned for quite a while. Certainly more than a CZ or CZ variant.



Heck, if you are complaining that you can feel a FMJ bullet hitting the feed ramp, I can't think of any semi-auto you CAN'T feel that on.



Heck, I've had the slide hit/rub ports while shooting and didn't get a failure out of it.



If you really have a problem with the concept, sell it and buy a sig, and convince yourself the bullet doesn't contact the feed ramp.

 

[matt7184]

:roll:



Why would I purposely put myself in harms way again?



I am a major Glock proponent and without the amount of endorsements the M&P has had from professionals that do go into harm's way and who instruct for a living, I would not have switched to the M&P platform. If you feel the design is so bad, sell your M&Ps. That is my advice...

 

[997GT3]

They ALL contact the ramp, but can you do as I said? Go back and re-read my post. Lock back the slide, insert a loaded mag, walk the slide to feed the first round and it slams into the feedramp and sits there... Modifying the feed ramp alleviates the problem. Simple solution. So, no, I'm NOT complaining about "feeling a FMJ bullet hitting the feed ramp". I can also get JHP to do the same thing. So, please, take the time to read or visualize what I'm saying, raz-0.



matt, as far as polymer designs out there I feel the M&P is the best, but nothing is perfect as I'm sure you know. If we don't critique designs we stagnate - like ze Austrians. If we choose not to accept constructive criticisms about moving our weapons forward then I have a whole yard full of sticks that can be sharpened... I think I'll stick to improving the modern tools.

 

[Jester]

Unfortunately I can get all of my pistols to do what you say, as we are talking. 990L, USP, XD. They will all "freeze" when walking the slide forward.



lol, even the P22 does it.

 

[matt7184]

I agree that we should critique the designs and move forward. Your criticism of the M&P in comparison to other designs is not valid since every single other design with a feed ramp does the same thing. I'm sure every specific instance may be different depending on the specific way the magazine feed lips sit in relation to the barrel/feed ramp. In my experiences with all the major brands, if you ride the slide slow enough you will get a JHP/SWC and possibly a FMJ to hang up. Firearms do not function in this way when firing so that would make your point moot. The slide is not slowly closed during the feed cycle when you fire a semiautomatic.



Maybe dr. lunde would comment on his experiences since he has almost everything you can think of :wink:

 

[997GT3]

Matt, you're wholly incorrect. You've not read my description with any understanding.



For what it's worth I took out my P226s, P7M8, 1911s, USPs and P2000 and in not one instance would the nose of the bullet impact the feedramp/breech and be stuck there from slowly releasing the slide.



One thing I did notice: The P2000 has the straightest "shot" into the breech than any of the pistols (I didn't look closely at the P7, though); the 1911 puts the bullet closest to the breech; the P2000 also has the cartridge positioned higher than any of the other designs. The interesting thing is that the cartridge is pointed at a more relatively rakish angle (nose up). The M&P magazines have the round more or less parallel to the slide - but the barrel is not parallel when it's not in battery (it's tilting downward at the breech).



I'll take photos to demonstrate for you, matt, how the bullet tip impacts the transition of the feed ramp/breech and just sits there. I was not able to reproduce this phenomena with any of the pistols listed.



Have a nice one. Stay safe.

 

[Dan Burwell]

Keep in mind you cannot have a straight shot into the barrel as the case rim has to get under the extractor if it is too straight the the rim will not slip under but the extractor will snap over and that is not a good thing.



Sure the M&P engineers could have made the ramp steeper like a glock and then they would have the same problems as the glocks, the unsupported barrel.



I cannot speak on some of the other designs mentioned but the 1911's I know well. Most 1911's will hang big time if you lower the slide(especially 45s) but that is all magazine dependant (Wilson mags will not do it). 1911s are actually designed to bounce the bullet nose off the ramp it helps the controlled feeding. the breach faces are actually cut at a downward angle to help ensure this occurs. For all I know the M&P could have this same design feature.



All that said I am still not sure what the problem is these guns go bang and feed a new round every time. I believe that is the end of the story. I could see having this discussion if they were having feeding issues across the board.



Dan

 

[matt7184]

997GT3,



I know exactly what you are trying to say. Unfortunately you are in the minority on this one. We will have to agree to disagree. Maybe you should take a trip to the pistol smith forums to say what some gunsmiths say.....







It is always good to hear your insights on this Dan. My experience mirrors yours with 1911s, especially with unpolished feed ramps, SWC or wide JHPs, or if the mag catch slot is cut too high on the magazine. Good point about case support in the M&P affecting feed ramp angle. I agree, if the gun feeds when it is shot properly and during loading (as it does in this case), this is a non issue.

 

[raz-0]

My 1911 experiences jibe with dan's, and not 997GT3's. Even with a reasonably well polished feed ramp, I can still get 230gr FMJ rounds to hang if I ride the slide forward in super slow motion that would never occur in a realistic situation.





i really must wonder what real world situation 997GT3 is considering that this might cause some kind of life threatening situation in? A home invasion while you are fidlling with your gun trying to deliberately cause a feed failure that won't happen except under very unrealistic situations?

 

[997GT3]

S&W obviously agrees with me. Check out the "new and improved" followers (gray) in the Compact models...

 

[Jester]

post up some pics...

 

[raz-0]

S&W obviously agrees with me. Check out the "new and improved" followers (gray) in the Compact models...

Yeah pics would be good, but for all the complaining about feed ramps, that isn't what they redesigned. Have you actually seen the follower out of the magazine and compared side by side?



In my experience, a new follower design was probably a good idea, but mainly to alter the stabilizing legs to avoid having them hang up in the witness holes, not for feed issues. (well, in extreme instances, you could bind up the front of the follower with lots of grit, taking a semi-circle out of the front might have helped with that a bit)

 

[DanGTG]

If you want to study the situation in depth I suggest you assemble your favorite pistols without there recoil spring assemblys and index the slide with your thumb and get yourself some dummy rounds so you can SEE for yourself that the round is further back in the feed lips of the S&W magazine causing the herkey jerkey action(as compaired to a Glock)in the feedway. I'll post a few pics in a bit.