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I just purchased my M&P .40 and i was going to see what everyone recommends for the best all around defense round? i'm hearing a lot about Speer Gold Dots. any suggestions?
best defense round?
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bought some Hornady TAP, never shot it hope i dont have to but it looks pretty nice.
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ryansmith16 said:
Your opening up a never ending debate with this question. Ill try to cap that and just say stick with any well known brand name JHP and you'll be fine. You need to test various rounds to see what cycles well for you. Don't just go off of what some one here says is the best ammo on earth. If it doesn't cycle in YOUR gun then its useless.
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368 Posts
I use 165gr Gold Dots, 155gr Hydrashoks, and 165 SXT Rangers. I like to spice things up a little :wink: .
This is what I've been able to gather from various bullet tests, research, blah, blah, blah, and hopefully I remember it right.
The Gold Dots are what my local Deputies use. They are a little newer than the others I believe, and score the same or above the Hydrashoks. I got 50 for $16 at a gunshow.
The Hydrashoks are the oldest IIRC. They are the softest recoiling and the quietest by far. These are pretty much what everything else is judged by. I heard they recently came out with a new design that is much more effective. I got 20 for $14 at Sports Authority.
The SXT Rangers aka "Black Talons" recoil the hardest without a doubt. Their unique design makes the round open up and uses sharp edges tto slice through whatever it might encounter. They score as well or better than the Hydroshoks. I got 50 for $15 at a gunshow.
A bad guy won't be able to tell the difference, that's why I keep a mag loaded with each 8) .
This is what I've been able to gather from various bullet tests, research, blah, blah, blah, and hopefully I remember it right.
The Gold Dots are what my local Deputies use. They are a little newer than the others I believe, and score the same or above the Hydrashoks. I got 50 for $16 at a gunshow.
The Hydrashoks are the oldest IIRC. They are the softest recoiling and the quietest by far. These are pretty much what everything else is judged by. I heard they recently came out with a new design that is much more effective. I got 20 for $14 at Sports Authority.
The SXT Rangers aka "Black Talons" recoil the hardest without a doubt. Their unique design makes the round open up and uses sharp edges tto slice through whatever it might encounter. They score as well or better than the Hydroshoks. I got 50 for $15 at a gunshow.
A bad guy won't be able to tell the difference, that's why I keep a mag loaded with each 8) .
Unlike most of us, large police agencies and Federal agencies have money to spend testing
different ammunitions. They also accumulate data from defensive shootings.
I once spoke to an FBI instructor who shared a fair bit of detail regarding the
Hydroshock and why they had adopted it. Had to argue with that.
I have also read where quite a lot of police agencies have adopted the
Gold Dotr ammunition for carry, for good reasons it seems.
Short of doing all your own testing, it's hard to get past what the agencies
have researched.
different ammunitions. They also accumulate data from defensive shootings.
I once spoke to an FBI instructor who shared a fair bit of detail regarding the
Hydroshock and why they had adopted it. Had to argue with that.
I have also read where quite a lot of police agencies have adopted the
Gold Dotr ammunition for carry, for good reasons it seems.
Short of doing all your own testing, it's hard to get past what the agencies
have researched.
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Any well known factory Self Defense ammo will be reliable and as effective as your aim. What you have to worry about in a SD shooting isn't effective ammo, it's personal liability. You will be going to jail, at least for the night. A year of your life will be tied up in court. Go to your local PD and ask them what they shoot. Shoot that ammo. When the prosector asks, "Did you choose that particular ammo because you want to kill people?" You can say, "No, I chose it because the (insert name of your town) Police Department determined it was the safest ammo to carry."
-Also, don't carry more than 10 rounds.
-Don't modify your CC gun at all.
-Don't call your gun a weapon. A weapon is what the bad guy had, even if it was a bat. You have a gun which is a tool you used to stop the guy with the weapon.
-And for heaven's sake, don't say a word without a lawyer present. The absolute best thing that can come from talking to the police is "Nothing" and it goes down hill from there. Do you really think that anything you have to say is going to get you a medal for being so brave and honest?
-Carry boring ammo in a boring gun, and pray to whatever God you do that you never have to shoot anyone.
-Also, don't carry more than 10 rounds.
-Don't modify your CC gun at all.
-Don't call your gun a weapon. A weapon is what the bad guy had, even if it was a bat. You have a gun which is a tool you used to stop the guy with the weapon.
-And for heaven's sake, don't say a word without a lawyer present. The absolute best thing that can come from talking to the police is "Nothing" and it goes down hill from there. Do you really think that anything you have to say is going to get you a medal for being so brave and honest?
-Carry boring ammo in a boring gun, and pray to whatever God you do that you never have to shoot anyone.
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You can legally carry as much ammo as you want. If your mag will hold 15 rounds, then load it with 15 rounds. As long as the 15 round mag is legal in your area, this is perfectly legal.
I do my own personal ammo testing. My own testing, along with all the testing done by law enforcement agencies, leaves 3 rounds that consistently rank top performers.
In no particular order:
Speer Gold Dot
Winchester Ranger (The LEO stuff, not the off the shelf SXT.)
Federal HST (Federals newest bullet.)
I carry the Gold Dot only b/c it's available locally for me. I would feel fine carrying any of the above.
I do my own personal ammo testing. My own testing, along with all the testing done by law enforcement agencies, leaves 3 rounds that consistently rank top performers.
In no particular order:
Speer Gold Dot
Winchester Ranger (The LEO stuff, not the off the shelf SXT.)
Federal HST (Federals newest bullet.)
I carry the Gold Dot only b/c it's available locally for me. I would feel fine carrying any of the above.
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11 Posts
No one uses Cor-Bons?? I used these and tested them at the range, boy was recoil nice and the bang was hella loud... Just wondering. I shall try out the ammo you guys recommended and see what the difference is...
Cheers-
Erich
Cheers-
Erich
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a attacker isnt worth corbon.. but then again.. i duno
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406 Posts
You can carry as many bullets as you want, but consider this:
-You might want to underload your mags by at least 1 round to maintain mag spring health.
-Picture yourself on the witness stand. Now answer this question, "Were you carrying 15 bullets because you were expecting to get attacked by 15 people, or because you're an unskilled trigger happy goon?"
Food for thought: I ran into an ER doc at Shooter's World in Phoenix, AZ. He overheard me asking about the stopping power of 9mm vs .40s&w. The week before, a DOA came into his ER. The DOA had broken into a Vietnam Vet's house. The Vet delivered one round of ball ammo from a Glock 17 center mass into the intruder. It hit lung, aorta, and spine. The perp was dead before he hit the ground. Whatever PD ammo you choose, buy lots of it and shoot it often. The better you are, the less critical ammo choice is.
-You might want to underload your mags by at least 1 round to maintain mag spring health.
-Picture yourself on the witness stand. Now answer this question, "Were you carrying 15 bullets because you were expecting to get attacked by 15 people, or because you're an unskilled trigger happy goon?"
Food for thought: I ran into an ER doc at Shooter's World in Phoenix, AZ. He overheard me asking about the stopping power of 9mm vs .40s&w. The week before, a DOA came into his ER. The DOA had broken into a Vietnam Vet's house. The Vet delivered one round of ball ammo from a Glock 17 center mass into the intruder. It hit lung, aorta, and spine. The perp was dead before he hit the ground. Whatever PD ammo you choose, buy lots of it and shoot it often. The better you are, the less critical ammo choice is.
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"No, I was carrying 15 cartridges because of the inherent weakness of the handgun cartridge in general. That is why my handgun is designed to carry 15 cartridges. My ballistic expert will now take the stand and explain just how weak handgun cartridges really are; and why my handgun is designed to hold 15 of them."
If you have the legal right to carry the handgun, then you have the legal right to carry it to legal capacity. If you are going to give legal advice, then you need to provide us with a case in which someone carrying to legal capacity was given a stiffer criminal sentence because of it.
If the shooting is justified, nobody will question how many rounds your gun had in it. We are taught to shoot until the threat is gone. That might take 1 round, that might take 20 rounds. You shoot until you are no longer threatened, and then you call the police. Now; if you were not threatened in the first place, and you dump 15 rounds into an innocent person, you might get charged in criminal and civil court.
Food for thought: There have been documented cases of perps taking 8 rounds of .45ACP center mass, and still continuing to fight. We can play the scenario game until next year and get no where.
If you have the legal right to carry the handgun, then you have the legal right to carry it to legal capacity. If you are going to give legal advice, then you need to provide us with a case in which someone carrying to legal capacity was given a stiffer criminal sentence because of it.
If the shooting is justified, nobody will question how many rounds your gun had in it. We are taught to shoot until the threat is gone. That might take 1 round, that might take 20 rounds. You shoot until you are no longer threatened, and then you call the police. Now; if you were not threatened in the first place, and you dump 15 rounds into an innocent person, you might get charged in criminal and civil court.
Food for thought: There have been documented cases of perps taking 8 rounds of .45ACP center mass, and still continuing to fight. We can play the scenario game until next year and get no where.
Have to agree with the HS, GD and XST recomendations. But none of them are one shot solutions.
Think of your pistol as a long distance drill. 9mm drill bits will drill 9mm holes. .45 drill bits will drill .45 holes. At pistol velocities that is about all the perfomance we can be absolutely sure of getting out of our pistols.
Now, there are 3 ways to stop an attacker quicky,
1. Disrupt his CNS with hits to the brain or spine, hard targets to hit.
2. Drop his blood pressure so far and fast that he quickly loses conciousness. Multiple hits to the heart and or the large blood vessels around the heart.
3. The attacker makes a psycological decision to stop attacking, this is not under our control and is the most unreliable.
So, #2 above seems to be the most reliable method given our long distance drill tool.
Therefore, we want a long distance drill that will,
1. Work every time.
2. Drill deep enough to poke holes and let the fluid out.
3. Is something that we can control well enough to to drill multiple holes quickly in a 6" diameter circle at 10 yards or so.
So our requirements for ammo in our long distance drill are,
#1 Reliablility. Must function every single time.
#2 Must be able to drill holes deep enough to let out the fluids.
#3 Must be something we can control well enough to get multiple hits on the target, a 6" upper chest area.
Everything after that is gravy.
Gringop
Think of your pistol as a long distance drill. 9mm drill bits will drill 9mm holes. .45 drill bits will drill .45 holes. At pistol velocities that is about all the perfomance we can be absolutely sure of getting out of our pistols.
Now, there are 3 ways to stop an attacker quicky,
1. Disrupt his CNS with hits to the brain or spine, hard targets to hit.
2. Drop his blood pressure so far and fast that he quickly loses conciousness. Multiple hits to the heart and or the large blood vessels around the heart.
3. The attacker makes a psycological decision to stop attacking, this is not under our control and is the most unreliable.
So, #2 above seems to be the most reliable method given our long distance drill tool.
Therefore, we want a long distance drill that will,
1. Work every time.
2. Drill deep enough to poke holes and let the fluid out.
3. Is something that we can control well enough to to drill multiple holes quickly in a 6" diameter circle at 10 yards or so.
So our requirements for ammo in our long distance drill are,
#1 Reliablility. Must function every single time.
#2 Must be able to drill holes deep enough to let out the fluids.
#3 Must be something we can control well enough to get multiple hits on the target, a 6" upper chest area.
Everything after that is gravy.
Gringop
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bobbthompson said:
Because I do not know if my attacker will be TWO thugs on PCP. If the threat lawfully justifies at least 1 bullet to defend against, carrying too many bullets is not my primary concern.
I will probably under-load my mags by 1 or 2 rounds, to prevent spring wear and loading problems.
G
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·Pow'RBall sold by Corbon
If one is worried about FTFs in their handgun the Corbon Pow'RBall Ammo. is really good costly but it's quality and designed to fix feeding problems. :wink:
If one is worried about FTFs in their handgun the Corbon Pow'RBall Ammo. is really good costly but it's quality and designed to fix feeding problems. :wink:
Quality mags are designed to hold the rated number of rounds. The springs in them are consumables and should be treated as such. Also, it is not the compreshion of the spring but the # of times it goes through its full cycle from loaded to empty that wears it out.bobbthompson said:
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I moved my oppinions to the CCW section because I was hijacking this thread. Come to my CCW thread http://mp-pistol.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1953 if you want to tell me how the M&P isn't a good gun and HAS to be modified to make it good for carry.
I love to argue!
I love to argue!
I already answered that bunch of BS. Nobody is saying the M&P isn't a good gun. Nobody is saying it cannot be used as is effectively. I AM!!!!!!!! saying it can be modified to be made better for the individual that is using it very easily. We have to very prominent Smiths on this forum that do work to the gun. Go to their websites, read their histories and thoughts. Call them up and ask questions to find out if their work will make the gun a liability for CCW or better yet for Duty work. For goodness sakes dude look at what David Bowie does for a living. A gun is a tool and the manufactuers are going a better job of making these tools adaptable to a wider range of hands. BUT! let's not forget that they are trying to make money and they make money by selling more guns. The cheaper that they can sell the gun the more they will sell if it meets with or exceeds it's competitors. That being said, no matter how good we feel our M&Ps, or any other mass produced weapon is there is always ways it can be made better for the individual that is using it. Notice, we aren't talking about tungsten guide rods or 2 lb compitition only triggers. We are talking about smoothing a trigger pull, strippling grips to make them easier to hold on to and even different sights that the individual user might just find superior to the three dot crap every manufactuer puts on their guns because a decade ago that is what everyone just had to have. One last point, you just might be misquoting your Guru in Combat Handjobs magazine.bobbthompson said:
To the original thread poster. I am truly sorry for the hijack of this thread. You might want to check out this link: http://tacticalforums.com/. Go to the terminal effects forum and the thread by DocGKR about recommended self defense/ duty loads. There is a world of good information there. I hope this helps. Again, sorry for the hi jack!
Here is the list of recommended .40 rounds from the above mentioned forum:ryansmith16 said:
.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP (53961)
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP (53966)
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
As you can see, the Gold Dots make the recommended list in two weights of bullets. I hope this helps.
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