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Discussion Starter #1
quick question guys...



with a pistol, i can drill the center out of a target...



but when i turn on the crimson trace laser, i'm putting holes everywhere BUT the center. the laser is calibrated properly, by the way... my friends who are lousy shooters nail 10 out of 10 bullseye shots with it. I, who can pull an average of 8 out of 10, become ZERO for 10 shots with the CTC.



the obvious solution is that i dont use it, since i shoot better without it. but...



WHY DO I SHOOT WORSE WITH IT? any ideas?





(i leave the grip on, because i love the fit in my hand... but just dont turn it on anymore)
 

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The problem with lasers is that you are not focusing on your front sight anymore.

The laser makes you focus on the target instead of the front sight.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
ok, i'm totally hearing you... but...



when i focus on the target istead of my front sight... what am i suddenly doing diferently that makes the bullet not go where its supposed to?



like i said... i spray them everywhere exept the target. my friends will take the gun from me and put it in the bullseye with surgical precision. (guys who, otherwise, couldnt hit the bull if their child's life depended on it).



anyone have a deeper explanation into what yukonglocker is getting at?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
ok, so what you're saying is that...



despite the fact that i have a firm and proper hold on the gun when i'm in a normal shooting position, the "confidence" in the laser may be making me unintentionally dropping my normal form or stability ?



so, those friends who suck at shooting anyway... their scores can ONLY get better. but me, who has good skills, might be thrown off my game by using a method other than what i'm accustomed to.



makes sense... is there anyone that has other experiences or theories?
 

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Re: How 'bout this?

cet said:
... are you ... (cough) ... ahem ...





RED or GREEN colorblind?
 

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f-bomb said:
quick question guys...



with a pistol, i can drill the center out of a target...



but when i turn on the crimson trace laser, i'm putting holes everywhere BUT the center. the laser is calibrated properly, by the way... my friends who are lousy shooters nail 10 out of 10 bullseye shots with it. I, who can pull an average of 8 out of 10, become ZERO for 10 shots with the CTC.



the obvious solution is that i dont use it, since i shoot better without it. but...



WHY DO I SHOOT WORSE WITH IT? any ideas?





(i leave the grip on, because i love the fit in my hand... but just dont turn it on anymore)


I feel for you F-Bomb. I have the lasermax on my P229 and I am all over the place when I shoot too. I spent $400.00 bucks on the thing and don't ever use it. I don't know if practice makes perfect but I'm too embarassed when I shoot.
 

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f-bomb said:
ok, so what you're saying is that...



despite the fact that i have a firm and proper hold on the gun when i'm in a normal shooting position, the "confidence" in the laser may be making me unintentionally dropping my normal form or stability ?



so, those friends who suck at shooting anyway... their scores can ONLY get better. but me, who has good skills, might be thrown off my game by using a method other than what i'm accustomed to.



makes sense... is there anyone that has other experiences or theories?


I don't really think it has to do with confidence.

Obviously you are confident that you can hit your target.

But, you are correct. The lazer is causing you to change something (which is very common).

What happens when you dry fire with the lazer?
 

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One thing I have seen. This may not be your problem but it is worth checking on. I have seen some good shooters mess up with the laser beacuse they see the dot moving alot on the target and they for lack of better terms jump at the trigger when in pauses where they want it. The movement seems more than with your sights because of the compounding angle. Relax and shoot through the movment. Trying to chase the laser can easily cause a trigger jerk which causes the bigger problem of a sudden over gripping of the frame.



Good Luck

CHECK 360

David Bowie
 

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Ditto on Mr. Bowie's observation. "Perfect sight picture syndrome" is common among decent shooters when they first try a laser. You're seeing so much more wobble than you're used to and at the same time when the dot is dead center you have a cleaner, more certain sight picture than ever before. The tendency is to yank through the trigger with less precision than you're used to.



Also, while a good shooter learns to read his sights and detect a problem if his grip/trigger pull starts to disrupt the sights during trigger manipulation, it takes time and practice to develop that skill with a laser.



Try shooting very slow, deliberate groups with particularly slow and precise trigger pull technique. Really work on getting a "surprise break" for every shot. While there are all sorts of silly drills people teach for this, the best approach is simply to put your finger on the trigger and add a little bit of straight back pressure each moment until the gun just goes off.



I'm consistently more more accurate and faster "at speed" with the laser, and also I find that my slow group shooting is better, as well.
 

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I have the same problem with you during the day. I think it's because I see the target, everything around it and the little beem jumping all over the place. But in LL or NL shooting, when your vision is narrowed down to just the beem on the target it's a different story; I'm right on target and able to make the hits just as good as I could using sites in the day light.



Maybe I need more time with them as well but for me, for now, it's sights in the day and CT in the LL & NL situations.
 

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Bowie Tactical said:
One thing I have seen. This may not be your problem but it is worth checking on. I have seen some good shooters mess up with the laser beacuse they see the dot moving alot on the target and they for lack of better terms jump at the trigger when in pauses where they want it. The movement seems more than with your sights because of the compounding angle. Relax and shoot through the movment. Trying to chase the laser can easily cause a trigger jerk which causes the bigger problem of a sudden over gripping of the frame.



Good Luck

CHECK 360

David Bowie


That pretty much describes me with a laser sight perfectly.
 

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remember also that CTC's are basically made for snap shooting, combat hit or miss drills, not precision. if you want precision, you already know that you only have to focus on the front sight post. the red dot is great for one hand out of holster snap firing, but i wouldn't try to get precision out of it....
 

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I'm consistently more accurate using the laser when shooting bullseye targets, and in fact I use the laser for all of my accuracy testing.
 

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i guess that just shows that nothing is concrete in sighting aids. perhaps I should've framed my post with "it is my opinion that..."
 

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Todd,

When would you suggest a newbie getting the laser? Is it a crutch before the fundamentals are achieved? You know where I stand but if it would help in the learning curve i might be looking at them.
 

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V -- that's a good question and one that I was expecting to hear from you.




I'm extremely biased in favor of Lasergrips. I've been using them for about a decade and I've had a close relationship with the company that entire time.



Having the laser on your pistol will be a good thing regardless of your skill level. Can it be a crutch? Absolutely. But that's a matter of discipline on the owner's part. If you do most of your practice with your iron sights, it won't become a crutch.



For someone with low to mediocre skills, the laser will make a very real difference in a stressful situation (we see this all the time with LE officers and Simunition/force on force training, for example) and particularly in low-light conditions, but probably not a big difference in your range shooting. The reason is that a laser can't help trigger manipulation. So if your marksmanship fundamentals are weak, a laser will just be another method of shooting poorly. But having them on a gun you'll carry or keep at home for protection will still give you an advantage.



There are some training benefits to the laser, it allows you (or an instructor/partner) to see how you're moving the gun during your trigger stroke. But if you're watching the laser, you're not looking at your sights which is an important skill to build up for a new shooter.



Once your fundamentals start to come together, the laser will become a way to train yourself to track your aiming point visually under recoil, to move your eyes properly from target to target, etc. It makes a lot of dry-firing drills (such as movement) much more effective.



So my answer would have to be this: If buying the laser means you'll have less money for ammo and practice, then forego the laser for now in favor of learning to shoot. If buying a laser isn't going to keep you from practicing as much as you would otherwise, then it's better to have it than not.



One thing to keep in mind is that there is only one size of Lasergrip for your M&P, so you're giving up some of the ergonomic benefits of the pistol's design by relying on Lasergrips. I'd recommend folks see if the grips "fit" well for them before committing to the expense.
 

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Todd,



Which palmswell size would you say the CTC grip mimics the most?
 
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