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so i was reading my educational material(in this case combat handguns magazine) in it is an article by massad ayoob. 7 myths that can hang you in court.myth one= it doesnt matter what calibur or type of bullet you use. well he gives case after case where people were proscuted for using hollow points, specificcly federal hydra-shok. case one the guy had a 10mm and the hydra-shok. double whammy,arizona vs harold fish age 57. verdict 10 years no parole, juror went on dateline and admitted it was the fact the guy had hydra-shok ammo that he went guilty. said it "really bothered him that he carried a bullet that was designed to do as much damage as possible, it was designed to kill". ayoob also gives 2 more cases. this was a case of self defense too. with this in mind what the heck do they want us to carry water guns?
 

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That guy most have had a really crapy lawer.

Just shows you how many people in this country dont know there ass from a hole in the ground

and depend on the tv :roll: to inform them.
 

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You know what really bogles my mind is how wrong the courts and public opinion is concerning typical defense ammo, hollow points, hydroshocks, ect. The pure fact of their design is to pack a powerful punch and knockdown the intruder/criminal while also penatrating the torso and HERES THE KEY stay put in the intended target. Anyone with the slightest range experience knows that a FMJ blows through just about anything, except the obvious plated steel. Imagine, not too hard, but just imagine a shooting in an apartment complex where the FMJ enters the intruder, exits the intruder and then passes through the walls and into the next apartment. Good shot, no misses, bad ammo. Unfortunately the FMJ is the publicly acceptable round because its not name HYDROSHOCK.
 

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Black talons were takin off the self because of the stupid media.

Hydrashok just a nother bad word that some one can twist into what they want.
 

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Actually they just changed the name of the black talons. And they no longer have the black coating on them either. They are now referred to as Winchester Rangers.



A court ordered McDonald's to pay a woman a million dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself. Ignorant things happen in court sometimes.



In the state of Oklahoma I am protected by law against criminal and civil liability if the shooting is justified. I have an excellent attorney lined up should I ever need him.
 

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IMHO, a well placed FMJ does the same job as a Hydra-Shok!!



A buddy of mine put 11 Hydra-Shoks into a dirtbag, he lived!!



I know a cop that put ONE FMJ into a Dirtbag with an UZI (he waited until the Dirtbag was reloading) and Put him down with a S&W36!!



IT's all Bullet Placement!!



Y



PS, it wouldn't hurt to get Masaad Ayoob to be your expert witness.



Y
 

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If you had carefully read the article you had seen the point was not the ammo but how you must carefully help your attorney know how to present the case. Wheather we like it or not, and we don't, some people are the sheep of the world and go about life thinking no one will hurt them or should be hurt. So those of use who are the sheep dogs will always be looked at as those who are to aggressive and to ready hurt someone. So your attorney must be able to communicate through his arguments and expert witnesses the fact that your are good and your choices in defense were made for safety. Ayoob mentioned that overpenetration issues need to be presented as part of the case.

Choose your attorney wisely and make sure he is, or gets educated in the defensive tools we use and the various reasons why we choose and use them. Also make sure you get the same education so your choices can be defended.

CHECK 360

David Bowie
 

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YukonGlocker said:
A court ordered McDonald's to pay a woman a million dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself. Ignorant things happen in court sometimes.

quote]



Have you ever spilt their coffee on you? ITS HOTTTTT!!!! I bought some one day and thought about the stupid lady who burnt herself....then I took a sip and about dropped the thing becuase I never expected coffee to be that hot. EVER. It was about one degree from boiling.







but I still think its stupid she got a million bucks out of spilling coffee.........another claim to fame of my home state on the left cost, the peoples republik of kal-e-foue-knee-uh.
 

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Like i said before the guy must of had a crappy lawer that couldnt explain to the jury the

facts.

ps I have known that black talons were renamed to winchester ranger

but the only reason that was done was because of the media twisting the truth with every shooting

that happened with that ammo line.
 

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Want the real story behind McDonalds Coffee Spill Case?

tstrenuous10 said:
YukonGlocker said:
A court ordered McDonald's to pay a woman a million dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself. Ignorant things happen in court sometimes.

quote]



Have you ever spilt their coffee on you? ITS HOTTTTT!!!! I bought some one day and thought about the stupid lady who burnt herself....then I took a sip and about dropped the thing becuase I never expected coffee to be that hot. EVER. It was about one degree from boiling.







but I still think its stupid she got a million bucks out of spilling coffee.........another claim to fame of my home state on the left cost, the peoples republik of kal-e-foue-knee-uh.


Actually the true story behind the McDonald's coffee Million $ award was this: The woman burnt herself, her husband had worked for McDonalds as a manager and knew that the boiling coffee temp was an OSHA violation. This was as much a hazard to the employees as the customers. Her husband confronted the McDonalds manager and simply asked them to pay for her doctor bill to treat her burns. The manager told them to go blow themselves. It escalated up the chain of management at McDonalds but they were not repentant about putting thier employees or their customers in harms way because .. well hey, we're McDonalds after all. It went to court and when the Judge saw that there was an OSHA violation. BAMMM! he awarded the plaintiffs one million $ due to the fact that McDonalds was in simple violation of the law and they were being total rectal orifices about it. If there had been no OSHA violation the plaintiffs might never have taken the case to court in the first place or of they had, might have never won the case and we would never be hearing about this. BTW, about 5 huge corporations own about 85% of the news media which explains the spin the've put on this story.
 

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People get hurt everyday from companys not following OSHA standards. I have been through the process myself. In my case the company had to pay a large fine, but I didn't get anything but lifelong pain and suffering. I guess it just depends on whose hip pocket the judge is in. And yes, I know the McDonalds case very well, along with many other OSHA/company/employee dispute cases.



I would appreciate it if you would unquote the words above that are not mine. Not that I disagree with what was said, but some of that quote is not my words.
 

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choochboost said:
The Arizona guilty verdict did not hinge on the caliber or ammo used. Although those arguments were raised by the prosecution, there were other significant factors that led to his conviction in that shooting.


That was my guess. I didn't know for sure because I haven't read anything on that case.
 

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this entire "hollow point" thing bothers the hell out of me.



Somewhere along the way, followpoint got the bad name - to do as much damage as possible.



I was always told(and have seen in several article and TV show states) that hollow point is so that it will not over penetrate. Projectile stops inside of intended target, so that house next yours don't get the hail of bullet.



because i'm tellin ya, if i shot BG with weapon in my house with FMJ, and crack window of my next door, i'll ptolly gonna get charged for that, and BG prolly won't go down until after he bleed to death from clean penetrating wound - which would prolly give him enough time to kill me and rape my Pug.



ALL cops carrying hollow point. but if they shoot someone in selfdefnce, they aren't going to jail. WTF is going on with this country these days?
 
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Harold Fish in AZ

Harold Fish killed an unarmed man. Thats what sent him to Prison. Yes he used 10mm Federal HS JHP Ammo. in his Kimber and they pointed this out to the Jury. But what really did him in was shooting an unarmed man over having to let him and his dogs get by on the trail. Harold Fish was just what the Anti-Gun bunch were waiting for to stick all firearm owners in the eye.
 

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MI_Jester said:
[quote name='mity2']ALL cops carrying hollow point. but if they shoot someone in selfdefnce, they aren't going to jail. WTF is going on with this country these days?


Not ALL cops carry hollow points. The Detorit PD carries the EFMJ and before that carried normal full metal jacketed rounds.



MI_Jester[/quote]



That'll change when the first over penetrated projectile hits the poor old lady's old 1990 Toyota Camry with rusty fenders that are happened to be driving by block away and her naigbor calls chanel 10 news, and they blow it out of propotion like they do with everything else



YukonGlocker said:
I know a couple officers here that stagger their magazines with HP/FMJ every other round.


whats the rational behind this? :?:
 

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Every other round will offer better expansion.

Every other round will offer better penetration, especially through hard barriers.



I'm not saying I totally agree with this. But there are police officers getting trained this way; and there are officers carrying this way.
 

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mity2 said:
That'll change when the first over penetrated projectile hits the poor old lady's old 1990 Toyota Camry with rusty fenders that are happened to be driving by block away and her naigbor calls chanel 10 news, and they blow it out of propotion like they do with everything else


Actually... it was public outcry that made them use FMJ and later the EFMJ. The problem is that many of the officers were white and the majority of the citizenry are black. When a white officer shoots a black perpetrator, it is a racist attack because he used a bullet designed for a vicious wound that would kill them.



To give you an idea, I found a copy of this on the Firing Line



======= Begin Quote ======



Police get deadly ammo

Detroit cops say hollow-point rounds protect bystanders. Critics plan to protest decision



By George Hunter / The Detroit News



DETROIT -- A stipulation in the new Detroit police contract that allows officers to use hollow-point bullets has some residents and city officials up in arms, but police say the new bullets are safer than the ammunition in use.

Hollow-point bullets expand on impact, which can seriously damage internal organs. Because of the damage the bullets can inflict, they remain outlawed under the Geneva Convention's rules of war.

If hollow-point bullets are potentially too damaging to be used in wars, they shouldn't be used by Detroit police, said Ron Scott, director of the Detroit Coalition Against Police Brutality. Scott said the organization is planning a demonstration against the use of hollow-point ammunition.

"By using hollow-point bullets, the Detroit Police Department has thrown down the gauntlet," Scott said. "It's a statement that they're not going to just try to stop someone until the danger is over. The point is to destroy, maim and kill."

But most Metro Detroit police departments -- including Grosse Pointe, West Bloomfield Township, Livonia, Michigan State Police and the Wayne, Oakland and Macomb County sheriff's departments -- already use hollow-point bullets, which the departments call limited-penetration, full-expansion bullets. Most big city police departments, including New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco, use hollow-point ammunition.

Hollow-point bullets are safer than the standard bullet, known as full metal jacket bullets, currently employed by Detroit police because hollow-point bullets are less likely to pass through the intended target and strike an innocent bystander, said Rich Weaver, secretary and treasurer of the Detroit Police Officer's Association. Hollow-point bullets are much less likely to pass through a body because they expand on impact.

"The full-metal jacket bullets often go clean through a person's body with enough force to cause damage to other people," said Weaver, who researched different types of ammunition two years ago for the police department. "With hollow-points, there's less risk of innocent people being hurt."

Another problem with the standard bullet is that it makes a clean wound, and the person who is shot often can continue to fight, Weaver said.

"It's not like the police are going around shooting innocent people," Weaver said. "And when we do have a reason to shoot somebody, we want them to be incapacitated as quickly as possible. Hollow-points serve that purpose."

But Detroit Councilwoman Sheila Cockrel said she strongly opposes hollow-point bullets because, if police do mistakenly shoot someone, it's likely to result in death.

"We just settled a case where the police went into a man's house and arrested him by mistake," Cockrel said. "He wasn't shot -- but what if he had been? The chances of him dying from a hollow-point bullet would be much greater."

While Cockrel said she appreciates the dangers that Detroit police face every day, "they do make mistakes sometimes. And, then, if you issue hollow-point bullets, you're likely to have another grieving mother and father at a funeral."



Council blocked hollow-points

The Detroit Police Commission approved the use of hollow-point bullets in January 1999. But the Commission's approval was rendered void when the city council refused to allow the city to buy the ammunition.

Cockrel said she plans to fight the issuance of hollow-point ammunition again.

"I'm looking into whether or not the arbitrator's decision (allowing hollow-point bullets to be used) is legally binding, or if it's still something that can be challenged," Cockrel said. "If there is a way to legally challenge this, I'm going to vote against it. You can take that to the bank."

Detroit police aren't carrying the new ammunition yet. Chief Benny Napoleon must approve the bullets before his officers can use them. In the past, Napoleon has strongly supported the use of hollow-point bullets.

The Detroit Police Officers Association has recommended two types of hollow-point bullets for approval: The Winchester partial gold round; and the CCI-Speer gold dot, both for use in .40-caliber Glocks.

"Those bullets expand less than other hollow-points," Weaver said. "But they still create a large enough wound channel to effectively stop a criminal."



Brass back hollow-points

Several Detroit police officers welcomed the arbitrator's decision to allow hollow-points.

"If the department supplies the hollow-points, I will use them," said Sgt. T.J. Smoot, a 30-year-veteran.

Police spokesman Octaveious Miles said he'll likely use a combination of hollow-point bullets and full-metal jacket ammunition.

"Hollow-point bullets are effective at close to moderate range," Miles said. "However, if a incident occurs where you are forced to use your weapon at a distance, hollow-points are not as effective as full metal jackets."

Officers in suburban police departments said it's time for Detroit cops to begin using hollow-point bullets.

"It's long overdue," Farmington Hills Police Chief William Dwyer said. "It's a safer bullet. There has been some debate about them because the injury can be more severe to the person who is wounded by a hollow-point. But police officers only fire, only use deadly force, in order to kill. We don't fire our weapons to wound."



Bullets stir controversy

The controversy of hollow-point bullets isn't confined to Detroit. In New York, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani was sharply criticism when he announced that New York cops would be issued hollow-point bullets a few days after Amadou Diallo, an unarmed street vendor, was shot 19 times by four New York police officers.

In response to the criticism, Giuliani said that if the police had used hollow-point bullets, they wouldn't have had to shoot Diallo as many times.

When Los Angeles police were allowed to use hollow-point bullets in 1990, legal challenges to stop the issuance of the ammunition failed.

New York transit police were issued hollow-point ammunition in 1990. Since then, only one person has been hit by a hollow-point bullet passing through the body of the intended victim. That compares with 17 bystanders who were hit during that time by full-metal jacket bullets that passed through the bodies of people shot by police.

But according to a 1989 study published in the Journal of Forensic Sciences, 80 percent of the shots fired in police shoot-outs miss their targets.

"More often than not, police miss what they're shooting at," Scott said. "That means an innocent bystander is more likely to be killed if the police are using hollow-points."

Hollow-point bullets have been controversial for more than a century. During the Hague Disarmament Conference of 1899, representatives of 26 nations decided to disallow the use of hollow-point bullets during wartime. The subsequent Versailles and Geneva peace treaties also outlawed the use of the ammunition.



Detroit News Staff Writer David G. Grant and Mike Martindale contributed to this report.



===== End Quote ====



MI_Jester
 
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