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Discussion Starter #1
Since obtaining my 40c and studying it a lot it seems to me the M&P is basically a SA auto. It appears that the striker is at least 99% cocked it not 100%.



So that would make us carrying a cocked and "unlocked" pistol vs a cocked and locked 1911?



Seems interesting some would feel uneasy carrying a cocked and locked pistol but not a cocked and unlocked pistol--is it because we can "see" the cocked 1911 but can't "see" the striker cocked M&P.



Is there a difference between a hammer under spring pressure resting on a sear and a striker being held back by a sear?



Is one safer than the other if/when there is no manual saftety present?
 

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I consider it single action



but there is a safety in the trigger that you really can't get around.





Hopefully I don't shoot my leg off
 

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Discussion Starter #3
So, if we could put a similar trigger safety on a 1911 we could remove the manual safety and have a gun just as safe as the M&P?
 

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The 1911 has an ergonomic safety as well- the grip safety.
 

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you make a 1911 that cammed 1/32 of an inch, and had a 6.5lb trigger pull that was long to boot with a functioning grip safety, and I'd likely be fine carrying the thing in a holster that properly covered the trigger.





Of coruse it wouldn't resemble a 1911 trigger pull in the least...
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I was trying to stimulate some conversation because I have always felt a "little" uncomfortable carrying my 1911s cocked and locked. I have read and studied how Browning designed it and the relationship between the sear, disconnector, trigger, hammer, grip safety, firing pin block and manual safety.



It just seems funny that I should have no problem carrying the M&P that is basically "fully" cocked and relying only on the firing pin block and trigger pivot safety (and my finger not going in the trigger guard) but felt uneasy with the 1911 in the same condition??



So, then I thought two things:



1. Is there any inherent "safeness" to a striker being "held" back compared to a hammer being "held" back???



2. Or does that "ease of mind" come from "not seeing" the striker fully cocked compared to "seeing" the 1911 or BHP hammer fully cocked???
 

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2 things. Unless it has changed both IDPA and USPSA consider the M&P DA as the striker is not fully compressed. Secondly all those who feel that it is unsafe or scary to carry a 1911 the way it was designed to be carried (and proven safe) probably should carry something else. I firmly believe the cocked hammer of a 1911 scares the crap out of many many people, people that think nothing of the other weapons they have that are cocked.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
UPSguy--I agree, and your last statement is precisely my point, do we/others "feel" safer carrying the M&P because they're aren't "seeing" that it is cocked--and could that be even MORE dangerous???



I thought the M&P was DA also, but after owning one I can see no discernible movement to the rear of the striker as the trigger is pulled. It appears to me the thing is 100% cocked. It appears the striker is held all the way to the rear by the sear and sear is just being cammed down by the trigger and releasing the striker.



Glocks are somewhere between 60 and 65% cocked. When you pull the trigger on a Glock you are actually moving the striker further rearward until the trigger bar is cammed down and releases the striker--that seems more DAO than the M&P--to me anyway...
 

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I consider the 1911, in the cocked and locked condition, the safest firearm to carry.

There is no way I would carry a Glock or M&P without being in a holster with

the trigger fully covered.



Back to the original post, I consider the M&P a striker fired handgun.

Different from SA, different from DA.

Mostly, but not all the way, cocked if you will. Striker Fired.



IAShooter
 

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The striker in the M&P is "cocked" more than the striker in the Glock is "cocked". BUT, it is not fully cocked. When the sear is cammed down, it doesn't move straight down to release the striker. The sear moves down in an arc. This arc pulls the striker back a little more before it is released.



Should the striker fall on it's own, it would be blocked by the firing pin saftey. The M&P will not fire unless the trigger is pulled.
 

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I think it silly that people are so nervous about cocked and locked carry of a 1911. Its got a grip safety, its got a manual safety, and its in a holster with the trigger covered. Nobody second guesses our military carrying a rifle cocked and locked with nothing but a manual safety.



Bureaucratic non-shooter bullshit from PD's making unfounded fears. I really think that as long as a pistol is drop safe, with proper training, the trigger travel and weight are inconsequential. Glock NY triggers and DA/SA are a result, in my opinion, of trying to use mechanics to overcome a training issue. Its a band aid.



The biggest difference between a 1911 and a striker fired gun is the amount of travel before the shot breaks. All the designs are safe if you keep your frackin' finger out of the trigger guard. I am personally a fan of passive safeties like the XD's and 1911's grip safety, and if they can be engineered into the design then great. If not, then it's not a deal breaker for me. One thing I would like to say though in regard to the actual physical trigger's design that it seems few manufacturers take note to.



On most guns (glock and M&P included) the trigger is shaped like this:





I would think this a better design:





Why? The curved style found on glock, beretta, sig, ect can snag on clothing when reholstering, inadvertently pulling the trigger, the 1911's style with its flat face and no "hook" can not.



Details, details.
 

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The only time I feel little wary with my M&P is when I'm reholstering. I do wish it had a grip safety but for the ergos and sweet shooting of my M&P 9c I had to give up something I guess. Just make sure you carry it in a holster that covers the trigger and stays open for safe one handed reholstering. I wouldn't want to have to wiggle it around and jam it into a holster that doesn't stay open. The XDs have the advantage to me that when I put my thumb on the back of the slide when I reholster I am taking my grip off of the grip safety, rendering the gun unable to fire. If the M&P had a grip safety I think it would be the perfect carry gun. It is really good as it is though.



The 1911 has a manual safety and a grip safety. Due to its design it would be perfectly safe to carry with the safety off. Its not going to fire itself nor is an M&P. The safety does provide added safety when moving and reholstering or if you inadvertantly put your finger before you are ready to fire. The M&P and Glocks use a longer takeup (a good 1911 trigger has very little takeup) and a heavier pull. The "trigger lever" also adds a level of safety al long as you keep your finger off the trigger.
 

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Beretta's DA trigger is about 10 lbs way safer than 1911's 3.5-5lbs trigger :wink: (esp if it's disconnected by the manual safety)



so does anyone know how far exactly the trigger is precocked on the M&P? did anyone ask S&W about this?
 

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The sear doesn’t move the striker back very damn much before letting it go. I consider the pistol a single action in a very loose meaning of the term, and largely because I absolutely reject it as a double action pistol.



In my opinion, to be considered a DA weapon, the trigger must be independently capable of causing a “second strike” When my DA or DA/SA pistols have a failure to fire; I have the option of pulling the trigger again to see if it will go rather than being forced into a malfunction drill. My Walther P99 (I believe the first and perhaps only TRUE double/single striker fired pistol) had a soft strike which was quickly solved by a second application of the trigger.





A single-action trigger, sometimes single-action only, performs the single action of releasing the hammer or striker.


Invented by Robert Adams, a double-action trigger performs the two functions of cocking and then releasing the hammer or striker.


I don’t think the case can be made AT ALL that the M&P striker is anything but cocked when the weapon is charged. The fact that the sear moves the striker back a fraction of an inch due to its geometry does not, in my opinion, qualify as a double action. Glocks move their striker assy back significantly farther IIRC, but even then I would be apt to call this a 1.5 action, or glock action, pistol rather than a double action.



Personally, I have been calling them all “Glock action” pistols because of this. The M&P qualifies for double action by the smallest of technicalities but still falls short by what I feel is the meaning of the definition.



If you dry fire the weapon, slide must be functioned by hand to cock the striker. This is clearly not a function of the trigger and is entirely the basis of my argument. From the shooters perspective, the weapon must be treated like a single action weapon.



The Wikipedia article on triggers calls the glock style action a “pre-set” trigger.



Pre-set hammers and strikers apply only to semi-automatic handguns. Upon firing a cartridge or loading the chamber, the hammer or striker will rest in a partially cocked position. The trigger serves the function of completing the cocking cycle and then releasing the striker or hammer. While technically two actions, it differs from a double-action trigger in that the trigger is not capable of fully cocking the striker or hammer.


Looks like I’m not the only one that thinks calling the Glock or M&P double action is significantly stretching it.
 

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Second strike capability is vastly over rated. Given the reliability of current ammunition, if the round doesn't go bang the first time, it's unlikely to if given a second whack. Therefore, the best use of time is a tap, rack to get a new round in play. Over the last 19 years, I've seen nearly 2 million rounds go downrange. If any misfires were fired by a second strike, I'm not aware of it.



The M&P is, in fact, double action. The sear is circular, the firing pin extension flat. The sear cams the firing pin back a distance before releasing the firing pin.
 

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How about we all just admit that we have DA, SA, DAO, and now we also have striker fired, lets call it SF. They are a separate class of action and I think its time to stop trying to make it fit in action types first designed 100 years ago or more, and for revolvers at that.
 

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I think the striker fired guns are different than SA or DA or DAO. Just call them striker fired and be done with it. I guess they are most like a SA design, in that the trigger cannot cock the striker/hammer but they aren't really that much like a traditional SA auto.
 

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IAShooter said:
I consider the 1911, in the cocked and locked condition, the safest firearm to carry...
What would happen if a cocked and locked traditional 1911 was dropped to the pavement, landing on the back of it's slide? I've heard it's possible for a good impact at the right angle to release the firing pin, which is then free and clear to fire the round in the chamber...
 

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Xfactor said:
[quote name='IAShooter']I consider the 1911, in the cocked and locked condition, the safest firearm to carry...
What would happen if a cocked and locked traditional 1911 was dropped to the pavement, landing on the back of it's slide? I've heard it's possible for a good impact at the right angle to release the firing pin, which is then free and clear to fire the round in the chamber...
[/quote]??????? There are certain people that should just not have a 1911.
 
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