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Call me cheap. But it looks nice but 2k for an m&p. I think I could put together one hell of a race gun for 2k. I understand 1911s and all that custom mill work but taking a $375 new 4.25 m&p gun and throwing 1500 or more into it seems to defeat the purpose of the gun. Plus their sight makes them seem like the smith is loose fitting junk until they get ahold of it and make it right.
 

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Call me cheap. But it looks nice but 2k for an m&p. I think I could put together one hell of a race gun for 2k. I understand 1911s and all that custom mill work but taking a $375 new 4.25 m&p gun and throwing 1500 or more into it seems to defeat the purpose of the gun. Plus their sight makes them seem like the smith is loose fitting junk until they get ahold of it and make it right.
Alright you are cheap. There I said it.
That being said I'm right with you.
$2500 for a M&P?
The WC 1911 CBQ is $2800, the Les Baer's Premier II is $2250 and both have 25 and 50 yard guarantees. 1" @25 for the WC and 3" @50 for the Baer.
I'm not busting on the M&P but it's like comparing Armand de BrignacBrut GoldArmand de Brignac to Korbel Brut.
Ones for very special occasions and the other one is for your drunk brother in law.
I just hit the Powerball, bust out the Korbel!
 

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Call me cheap. But it looks nice but 2k for an m&p. I think I could put together one hell of a race gun for 2k. I understand 1911s and all that custom mill work but taking a $375 new 4.25 m&p gun and throwing 1500 or more into it seems to defeat the purpose of the gun. Plus their sight makes them seem like the smith is loose fitting junk until they get ahold of it and make it right.
As to this gun, it is like advertising a Corvette on a Chevy Chevette forum, it's the wrong target audience.

Many people own and shoot guns like this. If you don't see the use, that is cool it just means you don't see the use for it. No worries, to each their own.

Ask yourself why would a high end 1911 gun maker put out a modified striker gun if nobody would buy it? The market for these are just as small as the high end 1911 market.
 

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I guess there are just rich people that wanna say my m&p was done by Ed brown and cost 7 times yours. I’d rather spend all that extra money on ammo and range time.
I see it at the old sporting clays club I used to go to. Guys with 4K guns and me with my mossberg 535. I get it, Some guys like something they can show off.
I enjoy the sport of shooting just like I enjoyed motorcycling. Some of my most affordable guns and bikes I enjoy as much as my expensive fancy ones.
 

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I find it funny that Ed Brown posted this "Fueled" M&P rollout on a 1911 forum.
The reviews are mixed but you would think that they would also post the rollout on the MP-Pistol forum.
My favorite line? A Gucci M&P.
I compare this as Ed Browns answer the Wilson Combat Glock but 1K more.
It's kind of like the Wilson Combat Berettas.
Is the $1500 WC Vertec worth twice as much as the MADE IN ITALY Beretta Vertec INOX?
Beretta USA doesn't care because WC is starting with a Beretta so they are selling a gun.
I think the same applies to S&W, They aren't collaborating with EB but are selling a M&P.
"The 3.25 MOA dot is perfect for handgun use and its long life makes it ideal for use on the range, or for daily carry."
A $2500 M&P for "daily carry", IDTS these guns will be safe queens.
Like someone said, the market will be as small as the high end 1911 market.
WC, EB and LB sell very few high end 1911s. These M&Ps require a $500 deposit BEFORE EB will start building one.
If you talk with WC CS they immediately start giving you the hard sell.
What was "the very best" 5 years ago is now junk according to Bill Wilson.
Marketing is everything but I bet EB wont sell more then 20 of these a year.
 

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I guess there are just rich people that wanna say my m&p was done by Ed brown and cost 7 times yours. I’d rather spend all that extra money on ammo and range time.
I see it at the old sporting clays club I used to go to. Guys with 4K guns and me with my mossberg 535. I get it, Some guys like something they can show off.
I enjoy the sport of shooting just like I enjoyed motorcycling. Some of my most affordable guns and bikes I enjoy as much as my expensive fancy ones.
In all honesty the Ed Brown gun is over priced and has IMHO some unnecessary milling done, but if guys think they need it, rock on.

I belong to a private range so range time is one payment a year and I buy ammo by the case online (I don't have time to reload) so I don't see a one time investment into fixing a gun as a bad thing. At this time we are shooting only three times a month, two range trips and one competition.

I used to look at it like you, saying it's a waste of money and it looks terrible.
My cousin had his M&P fixed by ATEi and I ragged on him and the owner of ATEi who is part of the same gun group we belong to and a member at the same range, until.........
We were at a class outdoors in March, it was 6° at the start of the day. Three hours in I had no feeling in my hands and this was the time the instructor decided to run a drill called malfunction mayhem, he causes your gun to malfunction in the middle of a drill, you need to clear it and finish the drill. Easy enough right?
Well I caught hell with the tap rack because of not having feeling in my hands. My cousin was laughing when I looked up because he hard already finished the drill.
He asked if I was ready to learn, I said yes and he then handed my his gun and I finished the drill without issue.
This was on a Sunday, on Sunday night I was ordering a new M&P online, it was at the FFL Tuesday and at ATEi Wednesday for repair.
As for "showing off" most of the guys I shoot with have similar guns, so not a show off thing.

I've had it for three years now and feel it was a great investment. Living in Michigan what happened in that class could very well happen in the real world. Sweat in the summer does the same thing. An RMR as you get older really helps too.
If it helps you shoot better on the day you need a gun, is it worth it?

I know I'll never be able to sell it because as a whole gun owners are the cheapest group I've ever seen. Example: put a new shield on a forum or armslist for $150.00 and watch how many lower offers you get.
To replace my gun including the RMR and TLR-2 would cost less than the Ed Brown gun but that's the great thing about America, if someone wants something different they can get it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The front block with tighter clearances for slide fit and barrel lock up would be something I would probably buy and fit to my own pistols.



The rest of it would not be anything I would purchase.
 

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Barrel lock up and fit is everything when it comes to accuracy. It's the difference between a standard GI barrel and a "match grade" barrel in a 1911.

While I understand the motive is profit, I don't understand why the makers of hand fit 1911s sort of of sully their reputation with "custom" Glocks or M&Ps.

I get Wilson Combat and the Beretta thing but only because Wilson Combat sold a lot of things for 1911s (and still does) that are solutions for problems that don't exist. When they started selling Shok Buffs for Berettas I wasn't surprised.

A couple years ago I came across a video on YouTube. The video always stuck in my head because it was one of the most honest videos I have watched. I recommend that anyone who has 20 minutes to waste and wants to learn more about barrels then you will ever need to know watch it. It also stuck in my head because a couple of my 1911s have hand fitted Wilson Combat match grade barrels in them. Every time I call Wilson Combat with a question they do give you an answer but then they immediately try and sell you something.

Anyway if you have time to kill and want to learn the difference between a new $50 GI barrel and a $200 Wilson Combat match grade barrel it's an interesting watch. What you think you know and what is fact may surprise you. These are some shockingly honest people and I post it because it dispels a lot of common beliefs.
 

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While I understand the motive is profit, I don't understand why the makers of hand fit 1911s sort of of sully their reputation with "custom" Glocks or M&Ps.
None of the big boys are “hand fitting” 1911’s. In 2019; they don’t need to. Now, some of them do sell “oversized” parts to individuals that want to build their own 1911.

As far as this goes; I would like to see a test.

Take one of these $2500 M&P’s and have an unbiased expert shooter, shoot it against an off the shelf M&P. Finding an unbiased shooter would be the hardest part of that test.

Do the same thing with 1911’s. I would bet my $900 SW1911 Target is nearly as accurate as a $3K 1911.
Would I like to have a $3k 1911 or a $2500 M&P, just for braggin’ rights? Sure who wouldn’t. But I have too many guns I want.

They aren’t sullying their reputation. They are making sure they don’t get left behind.

If you read the history of Ed Brown and company. They aren’t great Gunsmiths; they are great Designers and Machinists. He isn’t doing either anymore. He turned it over to his kids and is enjoying life. Good for him.
 

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None of the big boys are “hand fitting” 1911’s. In 2019; they don’t need to. Now, some of them do sell “oversized” parts to individuals that want to build their own 1911.

As far as this goes; I would like to see a test.

Take one of these $2500 M&P’s and have an unbiased expert shooter, shoot it against an off the shelf M&P. Finding an unbiased shooter would be the hardest part of that test.

Do the same thing with 1911’s. I would bet my $900 SW1911 Target is nearly as accurate as a $3K 1911.
Would I like to have a $3k 1911 or a $2500 M&P, just for braggin’ rights? Sure who wouldn’t. But I have too many guns I want.

They aren’t sullying their reputation. They are making sure they don’t get left behind.

If you read the history of Ed Brown and company. They aren’t great Gunsmiths; they are great Designers and Machinists. He isn’t doing either anymore. He turned it over to his kids and is enjoying life. Good for him.
That's the point of the video. They are taking the gun out of the equation and testing the accuracy of the barrels. They aren't using a ransom rest, just a jig that holds the barrel. They sell barrels so you would think that would be bad mouthing other barrel manufacturers and tooting their own horn. The truth is they put a barrel of unknown origin against a "match grade" barrel. The difference at 50 yards? Negligible.

That means that your statement about your SW1911 Target is probably 100% correct. As long as that gun locks up tight and has a decent barrel bushing it will be pretty accurate. Believe me Wilson Combat would have you believe that everyone of their 1911s is built, polished, fitted by hand. So what if they just pull parts from a bin and some guy takes a dremel and polishes a feed ramp? Les Baer Custom has the key word CUSTOM right in the name, implying they are all "custom" 1911s.
Ed Brown - "every part on every gun is carefully hand-fitted by a master craftsman."
Basically they take parts out of a bin and put them together.

What was told to me by a 3rd generation 1911 gunsmith was the most important thing was to have no slop in your 1911. That meant that the slide had to be tight on the frame and the barrel had to lock up tight plus there had to be no play in the barrel bushing. If your SW1911 Target has those three things then likely the gun will out shoot you. IOWs you will never be capable of actually shooting it as accurately consistently as it is built.

That's kind of the point of the video, regardless of the provenance of your barrel, if you have great lockup and no slop it make very little difference at 50 yards. They take the gun out of it, it's strictly the barrel. Would your SW1911 group as well? I would say there is a 99% likelihood it would. The same with an M&P. Put a newer barrel in it and clamp it up against anyone's "match grade" barrel. If you take the gun and shooter out of the equation there is no bias. I doubt the groups would be significantly different. They would be different then the 1911 groups but you get my point.
Would a "match grade" Ed Brown barrel have say more then a 1/2" tighter group then a stock S&W one in a jig? I doubt it.
 

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If that’s the case why does everyone who puts an apex,kkr or other semi hand fit, drop in or gunsmith fit say they shoot unbeliebably better. Are stock just that bad in mp guns or has anyone who changed barrels ransom rested them for accuracy check.
I feel very few of us, including myself, shoot at the absolute best of our ability that it’s the barrel that’s keeping us from being Jerry Miculek.
 

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If that’s the case why does everyone who puts an apex,kkr or other semi hand fit, drop in or gunsmith fit say they shoot unbeliebably better. Are stock just that bad in mp guns or has anyone who changed barrels ransom rested them for accuracy check.
I feel very few of us, including myself, shoot at the absolute best of our ability that it’s the barrel that’s keeping us from being Jerry Miculek.
I asked that question (How much better?) in this thread. You can check the responses.
https://mp-pistol.com/mp-full-size-pistols/71256-installed-new-apex-barrel-evening.html

This isn’t magic; its physics. The barrel and the sights on a semi-auto pistol move independently. Their repeatability two each other will be the main factor, mixed with other factors, like twist rates for the bullet you are using, etc. Drop an Apex barrel in and check the difference. Will I do that? Heck no, Apex already got $180 from me for something I HAD to have; I’m not giving them more for something I don’t (think) I need. But heck, it’s only money; go for it.

You want to see something funny? Take some of these guys that are buying M&P’s, Glocks, or especially those paying for souped up race versions of these and stand them in front of the target with an off the shelf 6” S&W 686 loaded with .38’s, or a 6" Ruger GP100. Watch the amazement of most. Physics rules.

But now be prepared, because some are going to get their feelings hurt and some are going to need some Kleenex. :laughing:
 

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If that’s the case why does everyone who puts an apex,kkr or other semi hand fit, drop in or gunsmith fit say they shoot unbeliebably better. Are stock just that bad in mp guns or has anyone who changed barrels ransom rested them for accuracy check.
I feel very few of us, including myself, shoot at the absolute best of our ability that it’s the barrel that’s keeping us from being Jerry Miculek.
Some people also say that the EARLY M&P barrels were so inaccurate that you could actually see a slight warp in the barrels. Yet nobody tested this with a ransom rest. Perhaps they were, the rumor was that it was one machine that was cranking out bad barrels. The fact is they went went from 1:18.75 twist to 1:10.

I cannot speak for M&Ps long range accuracy, that's not why I bought my M&Ps. They serve another purpose and hell just like you I carry a SD on occasion and that's S&Ws junk striker gun. The thing is it is plenty accurate enough for SD. I don't know what the twist rate is and frankly I don't care. I can put the bullets in the black at 25 yards and that's good enough for SD. It's actually overkill, explain how you had no other action but to shoot someone multiple times at 75 feet while using the words Self Defense at the same time.

The reason I posted the barrel video is because it is honest and also pertains to me. My 1911 guy is in Indiana so I have to drive to another state just to have this guy work on my 1911s. One of my friends gave me a new GI barrel years ago for Christmas. It did not have a link or bushing. When it was time for a tune up I busted out the GI barrel and asked other then the price and steel, what is the difference between this and the two WC barrels? To my surprise he said not much and starting taking measurements. He found the correct link rather quickly. Then he played with barrel bushings and found the correct one. He said this will be more accurate then you will be able to shoot, IOWs you wont be able to out shoot the gun. It will wear more quickly then the WC but go ahead and have some fun with it. I asked about my other 1911s and he said IDK, it will work great in your Colt build but I'm hungry. Spaghettios? Literally all this guy eats is Spaghettios and drinks Mountain Dew.

For a year I would change that barrel with the WC one that his father built the gun with and other then what I perceive as the the way the gun torques in my hand it was stupid accurate. That barrel now resides in my Springfield Armory which was my first 1911 and I bought used. I shot the daylights out of it, I cannot honestly even guess how many rounds I put through it let alone how many before I bought it. That's the one I converted to .45 Super and while it's beat up it holds great sentimental value to me. If it blows up I would be upset but I paid $400 for it in the '90s, it did need a different link for proper lock up but while not a safe queen it seldom gets shot. It's my "You want to shoot something cool" gun, .45 Super is a beast.

As for Jerry Miculek, that guy sleeps on old ammo crates, most of the things he does are amazing. I also think that some of the things that he does are practiced intensely when it looks like he is just trying something out but he is by far superhuman when it comes to shooting.
The rich might have Gold handles on their sinks but Jerry Miculek has handguns. "The J-frame is hot and the K-frame is cold."
 

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Long range accuracy? This guy can speak to the long range accuracy of the M&P40. While holding the reins of two horses in one hand, he shot an active shooter in the chest at over 100 yards.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/austin-cops-sure-shot-stopped-crazed-gunman
Holding the reins of two horses with one hand, Austin Police Sgt. Adam Johnson raised his service pistol and fired a bullseye into the target some 312 feet away.

Down went Larry McQuilliams, and so ended his rampage through the streets of the Texas capital, where he’d fired more than 100 rounds from his AK-47 and .22-caliber rifles at buildings. The shot, from Johnson’s Smith & Wesson M&P .40 pistol, hit McQuilliams square in the chest and made the 15-year-veteran the toast of gun enthusiasts around the country.
 

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Long range accuracy? This guy can speak to the long range accuracy of the M&P40. While holding the reins of two horses in one hand, he shot an active shooter in the chest at over 100 yards.
Which goes to the accuracy of the M&P. The problem is as a civilian I would being questioned by Sgt. Adam Johnson as to why I took a 312 foot shot.
I would also probably be grilled over why I was just riding a horse when I did it.:stuart:
 

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Don’t know of many cops that would reasonably take a 100yd shot at someone. Most are worried about getting sued and losing their lively hoods whenever there is a shooting and at that range there might be bystanders hit as well. But in that situation I think the officer had to go for it and my hats off to him.
 
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