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Discussion Starter #1
Anybody have any experience/opinions (not that you guys have ever expressed an opinion
) on this round? I have two kids a wife and a dog in the house, and would like something with lotsa stopping power, but little wall penetration. Thanks!



t6
 

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What is stopping power? A dog's bark has stopping power. So does the sound of shotgun being chambered. But that kind of stopping power is psychological. When we talk about stopping power (I hate that term) in the context of SD ammo, what we're really talking about is the projectile's ability to mess someone up physiologically. If a round cannot penetrate to the necessary depths to reach vital organs (after passing through clothing, arms, and other variables) it is less able to physiologically stop someone and neutralize the threat.



When it comes to wall penetration the problem is that in many cases the JHP will not expand and will act as FMJ and pass through the walls. But those would be the rounds that miss. A JHP that expands and exits the body (if your concern is overpenetration) will pose very little risk to anyone else. This is one of the reasons why it is good to choose a round that expands reliably, because if it does not expand, it may pass through the bad guy like FMJ, just like it can pass through walls. FMJ is much more dangerous to innocent bystanders/family members than JHP is, if we're talking about overpenetration.



About Extreme Shok, they are total garbage, they only work on ninjas and terrorists.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
choochboost said:
About Extreme Shok, they are total garbage, they only work on ninjas and terrorists.


I think that sums up your opinion
I don't expect to have to face either of these (although terrorists seem to be a bit more prevalent), but perhaps a BG intent on causing bodily harm.



So what I gather then is that a reliable JHP is probably better than a frangible bullet? Would a round like the silver tip be considered a JHP? Where would one find info on the reliability of a round performing like it is supposed too?



I understand the over penetration statement, that is probably a more accurate question. I live in North Florida and most of the year light clothing is what most people wear. Would I want to swap out ammo based on the season due to heavier clothing, or is a standard remington JHP 230 gr. good enuf? I guess I can't fathom someone being shot with a .45 bullet of any kind and not wanting to rethink their decisions.



Yes, the dog does wonders (at least from the lack of salesman at my door). I don't, presently at least, have a shotgun, so although I suspect the sound of a shell being chambered in a pump shotgun would be a great deterrent, that option is unavailable to me.



One additional question, I have read a lot about the weight of a bullet, why is it preferable to have a bullet that weighs less? Sorry if I come across as newb (which I guess I am when talking SD) but it seems to me if a bullet weighs more it will have more mass, thereby hitting that much harder. I suppose it is a mass x velocity thing? And yes, I have looked at several of the posts about damage/penetration etc. I guess that stuff is a bit over my head. Seems the current thinking is that penetration of 12" is about right?



Thanks!
 

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You will likely find this test of the "Extreme Shock" pistol ammo, it faced the Box O Truth and didn't fare that well.





http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm



Here's the summary at the end of the article:



Lessons learned:

The Extreme Shock ammo makes a couple of claims and we will look at the results. Please allow me to "paraphrase" some claims.



1. Claim: Their rounds are supposed to penetrate walls less than standard ammo.

Findings: The Fang Face penetrated 11 drywall boards, or over 5 interior walls without expanding or fragmenting. The Air Freedom round penetrated 4 boards, or 2 walls.



Less than a standard JHP round which penetrated all 12 boards, but still some penetration.



2. Claim: They are supposed to be able to penetrate a bad guy enough to be effective Stoppers.

Findings: Both the Fang Face and Air Freedom rounds only fully penetrated 1 jug and slightly entered the second jug.



This is equilivant of 3 or 4 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin. Some experts have doubts that this is enough penetration to reach the vital organs of a bad guy.



3. Claim: They are advertised as worth their cost.

Finding: The cost for this ammo averaged about $1.85 per round, delivered. I see this as a big problem with "Specialty" ammo. We all know that it is very important to function test any carry ammo through your firearm. Who will or can afford to run 50 or 100 rounds of this stuff through a firearm to be sure it functions without a hitch?



Even if someone buys enough ammo to fill their magazine, it is unlikely that they will thoroughly test the functionality of the ammo.



I'm sure this ammo costs a lot to manufacture. Is it worth the cost? You be the judge. One thing for sure…..Shooting stuff is fun. Smilie
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Just read your other post about the ra9t. I guess since I don't have 9mm option, is there an equivalent round that is available in 45? I see XST listed and talked about.
 

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tsix said:
I understand the over penetration statement, that is probably a more accurate question. I live in North Florida and most of the year light clothing is what most people wear. Would I want to swap out ammo based on the season due to heavier clothing, or is a standard remington JHP 230 gr. good enuf? I guess I can't fathom someone being shot with a .45 bullet of any kind and not wanting to rethink their decisions.
When shooting through clothing the question is not whether the round will penetrate it is will it expand. I wouldn't change ammo based on seasons. Good ammo should work at any time of year.



tsix said:
[quote name='G56']If you want recommendations, this page includes 45 acp:



http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tact...c;f=78;t=000964


Thanks! This should help a lot. Actually the round shown expanded looks vaquely familiar...
[/quote]

G56 has given you great advice. Use the search function on that forum when you have some time and you'll learn a lot. The standards over there are pretty high regarding what they consider acceptable, but I don't see a problem with that considering we're talking about self-defense.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks Chooch. I will be doing the research as I find time. Doing a search of the rounds recommended by the tacticalforum thread, I was unable to find any of the recommended ammo. Closest things I could find were the silver tip and SXT. I suspect the rounds recommended were/are for LE, so unless I find a source, I will hafta find something commercially available. Sites like Winchester and Remington are really not a lot of help unless you already have an idea what you are looking for. I am currently using the Remington 230gr JHP. These are not to hard on the wallet and I can practice with them pretty frequently. I also suspect that it would stop 99.9% of everybody out there. I have gotten pretty good at the double tap, but I suspect ten well placed rounds from the 45 done within 5 secs or so would be just as convincing.



I have been shooting since I could walk (a long time...) but only recently started thinking SD. This town (and the entire country I guess) has gotten downright scary! Even my wife and daughters are asking about available classes.



Thanks guys!
 
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I have had several discussions with the owner of the company. Extreme Shock uses compressed tungsten powder as its core bonded to the jacket. The powder is made a solid under pressure but reverts back to powder when it hits hydraulic medium (i.e. water, blood, flesh etc).



As for its capability, my best friend went hunting with the company president and killed a 450 lb wild pig, the first shot was lethal, the second put it down. It was with a Keltec .32. They fired a test round into the shoulder of the downed hog, one of the toughest parts as the hog uses it to bust through brush. The guide reported the Extreme Shock .32 did more damage then he had seen with .44s and .45 loads.



I believe in the round, I have it in my .32 Keltec, in my .38s and in my .45s. I have tested at the range and it was accurate and reliable. I have never had to shoot anyone with it, I hope I never do. Then again, I have never had my airbag go off in my car, I hope I never do but I'm glad its there.



For those who would criticize without actual experience, I consider this the same as condemning a book before ever reading it. They know not of what they speak.
 

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tsix said:
I was unable to find any of the recommended ammo.
Gold Dots are found in many gun shops, Federal Tactical and HST can be found at www.mahsupplies.net along with the Ranger T-series loads. Corbon DPX can be purchased from Corbon's website.



Rundel said:
I have never had to shoot anyone with it, I hope I never do.
Me too.



Then again, I have never had my airbag go off in my car, I hope I never do but I'm glad its there.



For those who would criticize without actual experience, I consider this the same as condemning a book before ever reading it. They know not of what they speak.
So which is it? You have confidence in this round because you say you have experience with it, yet you find comfort in an air bag you have not used?



I am not a ballistician and do not have the expertise to test ammo properly, so I rely on the test results and personal experiences of those who are ballisticians. That would seem to be the prudent thing to do. Do they know of what they speak? Can information not be passed on and taught to another? I do not need to personally try crack either to determine that it is not good for me.
 

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on the bull horn, tell the intruder you have aids bleeding and you are ready to bite like a rabid dog
 

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I was just waiting for Doc to chime in on what poor ammo this is.



It just shatters to pieces when it hits something which isn't going to put down the BG.





"Far from being, “the world’s most advanced ammunition”, Extreme Shock might be better described as advertising trash and a complete waste of your money."
 

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EXTREME SHOCK isn't really the right word, more like EXTREMELY OVER-HYPED!
 

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Corbon DPX, Winchester Ranger T, Federal HST, Hornady TAP or Speer Gold Dot.



Stay away from Extreme Shock. They're the "tornado air filter" that gives your car 5 million more horsepower but yet 350% more fuel efficient.



Sorry for the extreme sarcasm. I really don't like them.
 

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This is all very useful information in case I am ever attacked by a block of gelatin.



This is the sort of argument that goes on forever....



My personal rule of thumb is to go down one grain size for whatever type of ammo to get enough velocity to ensure expansion. I use 124 grain +P for 9mm, 165 grain for .40 and 200 grain for .45. obviously higher velocity runs the risk of higher penetration but for me that is balanced out by greater likelihood of expansion. I'm OK with 9mm but not great a which is why I used .45 until recently. I did not use .40 because even though I have shot a lot of it in Sigs and Glocks I was never comfortable in my ability to shoot it quickly and accurately as I could 9 and 45. The M&P changed that because it is the first .40 I can fire both quickly and accurately. I get 15 rounds in a pretty compact package in the full size to boot. There lots of bullet types out there but I stick with Gold Dot since they seem to have the most consistent performance. With any handgun I'm looking for lots of holes and lots of leakage.



Is this the answer to the question? I don't know. Overall it seems like the best compromise for me given the relative inadequacy of handgun ammunition.
 

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Good article Chooch.

It would be nice to see the actual statistics (correlational values) calculated in that study.
 
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