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It should be illegal to have this much fun! (just kidding) The 2nd is my favorite ammendment.



The M&P eats the steel, chews the paper, and leaves all your brass in a neat little pile.



Great stock gun. I shoot limited 10 production. Awesome gun. So much fun.



1 question about how people set up their sights though. Do you prefer POA or 6 o'clock and why? Do any fixed setups even give you 6 o'clock?
 

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POA is the way to go.



Six o'clock is nice, and the lollypop is easy, but it only works when the

size of the bull never changes.



Hold the lollypop at six on a 4 inch bull and put them all 10X, then what

happens when you are faced with an 8 inch bull? Ooops.... now you

need to cobble up a new sight picture on the fly. Ungood.



I like it when the firearm shoots indexed to POA.



Just my .002
 

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Okay, but when shooting at something smaller then the sights, say 2 inch dots or an inch across "x" with no larger scoring rings around them at 10+ yards(to let you see where in relation to the "center" your front sight is), how do you know where the small target is under your sight?



Wouldn't a POA/POI 6 o'clock hold eliminate that issue and allow for more precision? I'm not talking about the bullet impact swimming inches above the front sight, but impact being almost (in a perfect world) touching the top of the front sight blade.



It makes sense in my head....
 

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Trajectories are curves. If you always shoot at the same distance then a lollypop hold makes a lot of sense since you will always be shooting at the same point in the curve. Especially if you are shooting at the same size bull every time. Bullseye and ISSF shooting come to mind.



If you are shooting on the move or shooting at various distance and sized targets like IPSC or IDPA then POA hold makes a lot more sense as you can adjust it on the fly much easier.



another 2 pennies
 

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I understand about bullet trajectories, but just as with a standard hold you would have to compensate (ever so slightly) for the bullets drop. So I see nothing changing between the two holds except how you index the target.



Wouldn't a 6 o'clock hold allow for more precision?



Take the following scenario. A SD shoot at 60-70 yards. If you use a 6 o clock hold at 10 yards, then indexing the head on the bad guy at 60-70 yards should let your bullets impact in his chest. Because his head is above the sights, it gives you a point of reference as to where your target is (center mass) which remains under and obscured by your sights. If you used a standard hold at 10 yards, your sights would completely cover the entire upper body including the head, not giving you a reference as to where the target was "under" your sights.



Clearly this isn't a cure all, because say in the same shoot at 100 yards, your hold over would now obscure the head with either hold, giving you no reference as to where the center of the target is.



I would think at 10 yards this would be handy for smaller targets with small "bulls" (like an x or dot) that the front sight is wider than, AND have no larger scoring rings that protrude past the borders of your sight as its super imposed over the bull. Without those scoring rings giving you a reference to the center x or dot, it would be swimming anywhere underneath your sight.



Picture a 2 inch dot or x on a plain white poster board.



For the reasons stated above I was thinking of going with a 6 o'clock hold. But if someone can explain or show a flaw in my thinking, I'm all ears. I'm always learning...
 

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It just depends on personal preferance. Whether you have a 6'oclock hold or POA bullets will still fly in an arc and you will have to hold off at ranges different than your zero range. The only problem I can see with the 6 hold, is in the initial set up. When people talk of the 6 hold, they often think of the bullseye guys shooting at a standard sized target. There are set up so the sights are aligned witht the bottom of the black zone, hence the 6 o'clock term. The black zone is ALWAYS the same for these guys and they almost always shoot from the same dustance. If this is the 6 o'clock set up youre talking about, then it will cause you problems with IDPA, USPSA... cause there you have to shoot at different targets, different ranges and different conditions. It woudl be difficult to have a consistent hold where there is no big black circle to line up with.



Now if youre talking of a modified 6 o'clock hold, where all youre doing is moving the POI to be tangent with the top of the front blade, you should be OK. Personally, I preffer this type of set up and have found that I can shoot with much more accuracy than witht he standard POI that coincides with the front dot. I have a hard time with the dot obscuring the POI. Its all in my head of course. I have never been able to find a set of fixed sights that are able to deliver this kind of set up. I am sure that if you talk to Novak, Heine or any or any other sight maker, they will gladly cut you a set of custom front blades to meet your needs. You just have to calculate the heights you want. However, going to your favorite gunshop and buying a set off the shelf...good luck. This, along with the fact that I am reloading again, is one of the reasons why I like to have adjustables on my guns. I know that theya rent as durable as fixed sights, but in all honest I have never had one die on me. The MMC's that I had on my USP took a great deal of abuse without ever changing POI. For my XD I am considering Dawson as theya re taller than factory and will help with the loaded chamber indficator interfereing with my sight picture.
 

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ClosetCaseNerd said:
I understand about bullet trajectories, but just as with a standard hold you would have to compensate (ever so slightly) for the bullets drop. So I see nothing changing between the two holds except how you index the target.


I see the difference now. I think you're calling what I call a typical sight picture, a 6 o'clock hold. A typical sight picture is where the top of the front post is level with the top of the rear sight. Unless I'm still mistaken on where you are coming from that is.



A 6 o'clock hold is usually used to refer to the hold that 10M and bullseye shooters use when they shoot. They zero the pistol (using the standard front sight aligned with the top of the notch in the rear described above) so that the black circle of the target is resting on top of the sight picture much as a lolly pop sits on top of a stick. Some call it the lolly pop hold for that reason. It allows for more precise hold when you have a fixed black circle size and a known repeated distance to target since you aren't arbitrarily trying to hold in the center of what appears to be a large solid black circle. The edge of the circle is a much more repeatable hold point so it's used instead.



It sounds like you are calling a 6 o'clock hold what many (most?) call a standard POA hold.
 

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On the left is what I would call, for lack of a better term, a "standard hold". This is how my gun shoots now. On the right is what I always thought of as a 6 o'clock hold. You can see the advantage in the scenario of a small target (due to either distance or being physically small) being "lost" under the sights with no visual cues as to if its centered from outer scoring rings. The small red dots indicate where the bullet would land on the target with either hold.



Now if youre talking of a modified 6 o'clock hold, where all you're doing is moving the POI to be tangent with the top of the front blade, you should be OK


That is exactly what I was trying to say/do/refer to! Now that I look at my picture, they don't demonstrate that very well if you look at the black dot, but if you look at the red "bullet holes" it does. That's exactly what I was trying to verbalize.
 

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I'm sorry but there are many links on that site...which were you reffering to specifically?



And what would the examples to the left be called if it is not a "POA" hold?
 

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ClosetCaseNerd said:
I'm sorry but there are many links on that site...which were you reffering to specifically?



And what would the examples to the left be called if it is not a "POA" hold?


The example on the left is basically a pistol shooting too low. It's either not sighted in properly is that is supposed to be your sight in distance, or it's shooting either closer than your first point blank aim range or farther than your second point blank aim range.



The point of aim hold is saying that the pistol is set to punch a hole where the targets are aligned. Both the top left and the top right target pictures show a properly alighted sight picture with the top of the front sight aligned with the top of the rear sight, and the front blade centered in the back notch. A 6 O'clock hold is set to hit above where the sights are aligned for a specific distance. The idea is that you can hold the bottom of the black circle and pull the trigger to put the bullet in the center of the black circle. That's why 6 o'clock is typically only used for a fixed distance and fixed target size. You need to know where you are in the curve of the trajectory and how far up the black circle you have to hit to make center bull shots.



The picture on the top right is actually representative of a POA sight hold. If the bullet holes were hitting the middle of the black circle while you were holding like you are on the top right picture then you'd be holding 6 o'clock hold.



I got the link corrected in the post above. Sorry for that. The frames used in the website got me. =]
 

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The POI will always be distance dependent..so I fail to see why that is such a big factor with one hold over another. It doesn't matter what hold you use, your rounds will land high or low depending on how far or near to the target you are, and their change in trajectory will be the same (for practical purposes with a pistol) regardless of the hold you use.



When I meant 6 o clock hold, as I said before, I was trying to imply the bullet impacting touching the top of the front sight post @ 10-15 yards (remember focus on the RED dot "bullet impact" on the top target examples I posted).



On my M&P the bullets basically impacts at 10 yards where the white dot on my front sight is. I would think moving the POI up to the top of the front sight blade would be better for more precision, at any distance.
 

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ARGH!!! That isn't a six o'clock hold! That's a regular hold. The "6 o'clock" doesn't refer to the impact point of the bullet. It refers to the aim point on the target bull. The target picture in the top right is a POA hold and IS NOT a 6 o'clock hold!



Repeat with me. 6 o'clock holds are NEVER where the bullet impacts touching the top of the sight picture. They are ALWAYS where the bullet impacts some measure of distance ABOVE the sight picture. That's why they are always used at fixed distances with fixed target sizes. A six o'clock hold means that you are holding on the "six" of the black bull on the target... and hitting the CENTER of the bull. It's a fixed distance, fixed target size hold.



Yes, if you were to move the distance out or in, the impact would change but then you couldn't hold the six of the target bull and expect to score very well. You could still shoot with a 6 o'clock hold at that point but it wouldn't do you any good. A 6 o'clock hold always holds the bottom (6 o'clock) of the bull.



HAHA I must be doing a really poor job of trying to explain this or something. LOL =]
 

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LOL. Youre both right. The classic 6 o'clock hold is as Morphire describes. What CCN and I are talking about is a modified version that places impact at a specified range at the top of the front blade. At 10-15 yds factory sights are NOT set for this kind of impact. They are set to have the POI coincide with the dot on the front sight as the left side of CCN's picture shows. This has been the case with EVERY firearm I have owned be it HK, Les Baer, Wilson... you name it the bullets impact at the location of the front dot at 10-15 yds not on top of the front post.



The disconnect is the terminology, not you rexplanation. This is why I call it a modified 6 o'clock hold where the 6 o'clock refers to having the sights lined up with the 6 o'clock position of the POI not the bull. Not sure if there is actually a term for it, but POA is not totally correct either.
 

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hehehehe...ah this amuses me to no end. You are all right and wrong regarding terminology. I've run into multiple well organized and trusted sources, and they all break down when it comes to the fine fiddly bits of 6-o'clock vs. ..... well whatever they choose to call the other one.



For my purposes I will describe 6-o'clock as me puting a teniis ball down range, and to hit the tennis ball, I have my rear sights lined up with the front, and the front sight aimed to be tangential to the bottom of the ball down range.



The other i will call a subtended sight picture. Where if i want to hit the center of the tennis ball, I want the top of the front sight covering the bottom half of the ball and thus subtending the target.





Alright. Now for which is better? From an accuracy standpoint, neither really wins. With the subtended sight picture, you have to guesstimate that you have your desired target underneath the front sight. With the 6-o'clock picture, you have to guess that for the given range, you ahve the front sight the right distance from the center of your target. You are either good at estimating this or not. Some folks maybe more comfortable one way or the other. For games like bullseye with set target sizes at set distances, the 6-o'clock picture may give you more options to estimate a "good" sight picture and may be more ergonomic.



Then you have shooting fast and moving, and shooting from a draw. Realisticly, there may be a practical advantage to one or another sight picture here, but it is going to depend on your gun and sights, and which sight picture comes closer to falling in line with your natural point of aim using that gun in order to have your POI be where it should. Most people find that on the popular guns, a subtended sight picture does this job better.



Then you have the manufacturer's and designers perspective. You'll notice that barrels lock up to the frame at the top. this is to impart upward trajectory. But you only have so much you can do without affecting the design, and the choice of sight heights. Which more often than not means the subtended sight picture wins.



That being said, when it comes to magnifying optics, I REALLY wich they'd learn to love the chevron, especially if the reticle is going to magnify.
 

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All those pistols you describe are almost guaranteed sighted in at 25 yards and not 10 yards. I know that mine are. That 25 yard zero will definitely see them hitting low at 10 yards. That would be a case of the shooter needing to hold high for a close shot is all. Where do those factory sighted pistols hit when you hold the same at 25 yards?



What if the front sight has no dot? What if it has no rear dot? What are you supposed to align if the hold is dependent on a dot that isn't there? For a post and notch sight, I still assert that there is only one "correct" sight picture - front sight centered and aligned with the top of the rear notch. When you hold that way, and the bullet impacts at the top of the front sight blade, you are at your zero distance.



The point of aim is the top of the front sight blade. That's why it's called a POA hold.



I totally agree that it's the terminology that's messing things up, but there is a long history of this terminology being used this way and to use it inaccurately is to describe things inaccurately too. It leads to confusion and can lead to misunderstanding when communicating what you mean to others that know the terminology that is in general use.



You could call your modified 6 o'clock hold the fred hold or the fuzzy bunny hold and it would still be a regular old POA hold for most everyone that is familiar with the terminology currently in use. Is that wrong? Not at all, but it sure is confusing. LOL



Have a good one!
 

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raz-0 said:
hehehehe...ah this amuses me to no end. You are all right and wrong regarding terminology. I've run into multiple well organized and trusted sources, and they all break down when it comes to the fine fiddly bits of 6-o'clock vs. ..... well whatever they choose to call the other one.



For my purposes I will describe 6-o'clock as me puting a teniis ball down range, and to hit the tennis ball, I have my rear sights lined up with the front, and the front sight aimed to be tangential to the bottom of the ball down range.



The other i will call a subtended sight picture. Where if i want to hit the center of the tennis ball, I want the top of the front sight covering the bottom half of the ball and thus subtending the target.


That sounds exactly like you describing 6 o'clock and POA holds respectively just the same as I have been doing. Not sure how I'm wrong though as you assert in your first sentence since you seem to be agreeing with me. =
 

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All those pistols you describe are almost guaranteed sighted in at 25 yards and not 10 yards. I know that mine are. That 25 yard zero will definitely see them hitting low at 10 yards. That would be a case of the shooter needing to hold high for a close shot is all. Where do those factory sighted pistols hit when you hold the same at 25 yards?


If a pistol is sighted in at 25 yards, wouldn't it be high at 10 yards, not low?



So we are in agreement that with all the top planes of the rear sight and the front sight blade being level, with equal light between the front sight blade and the rear sight notch, at whatever distance the pistol is sighted in for, the bullets should impact level with the TOP of the front sight blade. Saying, if you were looking through the sight, and recoil was not a factor, you would be able to watch the bullet hole appear almost or slightly touching the top of your front sight blade?



Yes? And such a thing would be called a POA hold?
 

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Ok, Point of aim, is where you aim.



Point of impact is where the bullet actually goes. POI and POA can be both depending on the distance sighted in. it has nothing to do with where the sights are held.







 

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Now, for all purposes, 25 yards and 10 yards with a 9mm or 40 there isnt much of a sight change.



Now for a 223 at 200-300 yards there is.



There is no "best hold" there is the way you do it and everyone elses way.



I hold 111 in the center of the circle and my impacts hit at the top of the front sight.



some hold the same with the front sight covering the target and hit center of the target, they like that. thats the 12' hold



some hold at 6' and hit center. POA and POI aren't what your trying to get across.



POA is where you aim

POI is where you hit.



There isn't really such a think as a POA hold, you aim where you aim, and thats just it.



What you want to say is a POI hold.



If the targets closer than your what sights are set then you will hold higher or lower, depending on the distance.



M16 shoots on the same plane at 36 yards as they do at 300 yards. Its all about the flight path.



I used to teach this stuff, and I know its hard to get people to understand.
 
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