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Discussion Starter #1
I was set on pairing 147g Hydra-Shoks with my M&P 9 until I read lots of negative opinions about Hydra-Shoks generally. Should I steer clear of this ammo? Gold Dots seem to be well regarded, and if I ditch the Hydra-Shok plan, that it probably what I will go with. The 147g Gold Dot has a lower velocity that the 147g Hydra-Shok, which is why I figured the Hydra-Shok would be "better". In any event, can someone school me about the plusses and minuses of each of these loads and brands? Basically, I want to be able to stop a bad guy whether he's naked and skinny or extremely fat and wearing a big bulky down jacket. Here is a summary of muzzle velocity (in feet per second) for each of the rounds I'm considering:



Hydra-Shok 147g: 1,000

Gold Dot 147g: 985

Gold Dot 124g: 1,150

Gold Dot 124g +P: 1,220



Thanks for any help on this!
 

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If I am not mistaken +P is not recommended as per the m&p user guide. But pretty soon chooch will come on here and drop some knowledge
8)
 

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+p is fine. Smith, like most companies, warn against +p+ because it is not a proper SAAMI specification.



9x19mm SAAMI MAP: 35kpsi

9x19mm +p SAAMI MAP: 38.5kpsi

9x19mm +p+: anyone's guess



There have been plenty of successful shootings with 9mm rounds in every common weight. Currently, I carry 124gr +p Gold Dot.
 

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Absolutenewb, you've listed the velocity numbers but that is only one part of what makes a particular load a good one...or not. The knock on the Hydra-shok is going to be its less than stellar expansion record in spite of the fact that it has plenty of velocity. Between the Gold Dot and the Hydra-shok, the single most significant difference in performance is related to bullet design. The Gold Dot wins in that category. The standard pressure 124gr. Gold Dot is okay, but the +p is better. The 147gr. is very good as well. My personal preference in 9mm would be the 147gr. HST or Ranger-T.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
choochboost said:
Absolutenewb, you've listed the velocity numbers but that is only one part of what makes a particular load a good one...or not. The knock on the Hydra-shok is going to be its less than stellar expansion record in spite of the fact that it has plenty of velocity. Between the Gold Dot and the Hydra-shok, the single most significant difference in performance is related to bullet design. The Gold Dot wins in that category. The standard pressure 124gr. Gold Dot is okay, but the +p is better. The 147gr. is very good as well. My personal preference in 9mm would be the 147gr. HST or Ranger-T.


Thanks for the info Chooch. The HST and Ranger-T rounds appear to be restricted to law enforcement officers. Can a civilian buy and use them?
 

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I whole heartedly agree with Chooch, especially for a full sized 9mm. For a 9c (and only for the "C") I'd add the pricey Speer's 124gr Short Barrel offering to the list.



The HST and Ranger-T rounds appear to be restricted to law enforcement officers. Can a civilian buy and use them?


A link is worth a thousand words.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_...roducts_id=1578



http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_...roducts_id=1165



http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_...products_id=662



http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_...products_id=655
 

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You are going to get alot of different answers. Here is mine. I like 124 grain +P Gold dots so I don't have to be concerned about expansion. As a rule of thumb I go down one from the maximum grain on 9, 40, and 45 to get a more velocity and thus better expansion. So in .40 I carry 165 grain, in .45 200 grain. I only use +P in 9mm though not in .45.
 

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Lots of places sell Ranger T seen though it says Law Enforcement only on the box. I have always wondered if that could be an issue in court. Regular Ranger T is loaded pretty hot to the point that I think it may be pretty close to +P.



absolutenewb said:
choochboost said:
Thanks for the info Chooch. The HST and Ranger-T rounds appear to be restricted to law enforcement officers. Can a civilian buy and use them?
 

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It seems that a pretty fair number of police departments still use Hydra-Shoks. Here in Phoenix for example they use .45 230 grain Hydra-shoks. The reason I mention that is because a lot of people are told to find out what their local police use and use the same thing to avoid issues in court. I have heard that Hydra-shoks are especially poor expanders if the target is wearing lots of clothing btw.



choochboost said:
Absolutenewb, you've listed the velocity numbers but that is only one part of what makes a particular load a good one...or not. The knock on the Hydra-shok is going to be its less than stellar expansion record in spite of the fact that it has plenty of velocity. Between the Gold Dot and the Hydra-shok, the single most significant difference in performance is related to bullet design. The Gold Dot wins in that category. The standard pressure 124gr. Gold Dot is okay, but the +p is better. The 147gr. is very good as well. My personal preference in 9mm would be the 147gr. HST or Ranger-T.
 

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Just to give you a bit more to work with (don't you hate that
) here are some performance claims.



From Shooting the Messenger:

Bullet weight...Penetration...Expansion



Bare gelatin:

Federal HST 9mm...147 gr...11.50”...0.891”

Federal HST 9mm...124 gr...11.75”...0.839”



Simulated heavy clothing:

Federal HST 9mm...147 gr...13.75”...0.689”

Federal HST 9mm...124 gr...12.00”...0.709”


Just to through in some numbers with velocities included here are DoubleTap's claims for their very hot loads:

Bullet weight @ Velocity...Penetration...Expansion

Simulated heavy clothing:

115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps...12.00"...0.70"

124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps...13.25"...0.70"

147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps...14.00"...0.66"


Not knowing enough about DoubleTap's products or how much flash they produce I'm withholding any recommendation for or against their products. I've included them for comparison purposes only.
 

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absolutenewb said:
Thanks for the info Chooch. The HST and Ranger-T rounds appear to be restricted to law enforcement officers. Can a civilian buy and use them?
They are generally lawful for civilians, just as any JHP is, unless you live in Jersey, etc.
 

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Steelshooter said:
absolutenewb, Just in case you are unaware you don't want too much penetration as you may hit innocent bystanders.
Overpenetration is not something that one should really worry about IMO. Its become a dirty word that is really a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. If your round hits an arm it will over "penetrate". If your round grazes the side of the torso, it will likely "overpenetrate". There is much less to worry about with solid COM hits. So train, train, train, so that you can hit what you're aiming at, cause after all, rounds that miss are worse than rounds that overpenetrate. :wink:
 

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choochboost said:
[quote name='Steelshooter']absolutenewb, Just in case you are unaware you don't want too much penetration as you may hit innocent bystanders.
Overpenetration is not something that one should really worry about IMO. Its become a dirty word that is really a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. If your round hits an arm it will over "penetrate". If your round grazes the side of the torso, it will likely "overpenetrate". There is much less to worry about with solid COM hits. So train, train, train, so that you can hit what you're aiming at, cause after all, rounds that miss are worse than rounds that overpenetrate. :wink:[/quote]



I agree with choochboost...I'm not gonna go out and load my MP9c with fmj but I'm not terriably worried about over penetration either. I read somewhere that just to penetrate skin is similar to 4 inches of ballistic gel. Whether or not that is true I'm much more afraid of a miss than I am of overpenetration when the bullet has 80 or 90 % of its energy expended.
 

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absolutenewb said:
The HST and Ranger-T rounds appear to be restricted to law enforcement officers. Can a civilian buy and use them?


That's by the company.. any dealer is allowed to sell to civilian so it's perfectly legal to have them except as somebody said in Jersey where they don't let you have JHP's at all I want to say??



Regardless stick to Docs list of approved and recommended loads



The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:



9 mm:

Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)

Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)

Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)

Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)

Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)

Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)

Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)



.40 S&W:

Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP

Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)

Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)

Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)

Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)

Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)

Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)

Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)



.45 ACP:

Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)

Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)

Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)

Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
 

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MTech said:
9 mm:

Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)

Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)

Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)

Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)

Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)

Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)

Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
These are my personal choice. I am surprised not to see the Remington Golden Saber 124gr +P on here. From what I have 'seen', they perform the best consistantly (nothing, denim, leather, etc)

I, personally, am not fond of these. Again from personal experience, these seem to plug when going through any 'barrier' and not expand, turn into FMJs. But, when going through nothing first, expand and perform like most other 124 JHPs



Don't see any of my favorite .40S&W loads on there either
 
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