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Discussion Starter #1
I'm an athlete, and an aspect of athletics that I've always been super appreciative of, is form critiquing. So you have a professional, or a coach, and you send them a link to a youtube video of your form, and they offer you advice on fixing your form.
That's something I haven't seemed to be able to find in the shooting community. So my questions are:
1) Does this already exist? And if not
2) Is there anyone in here that would be willing, and experienced enough to do this?

If so, for real you could become the next big firearm YouTube channel, just by posting videos of you analyzing other people's form. (If you take this idea and run with it, please remember me lol)
 

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Since no one has answered your thread in three days, I'll toss in my opinion.

For any kind of effective "form critique" you need to be right there in person with a teacher/coach who can not only tell you what you are doing wrong but can make sure you make the proper corrections. Sometimes this can even be hands on, like gently reaching down to push on the back of your knee(s) if not bent or even gently pushing your body forward from the hips if your posture is too upright and/or you are tending to lean backward.

Someone watching a video can tell you these things, but are you actually able to make the corrections if there is no one there to watch you and make sure you are doing it right and repeating it enough times for it to become muscle memory?
 

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Send away, not that I am aware of. However in person trainers will video via Coach's Eye before class starts and then after to see if improvements were made and note the difference on the shot timer. They work one on one with each student to anaylze grip, stance, draw, etc..

I took a red pistol class at Alliance Police Department that did this via Joe Weyer.
 

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On side note, we do this now in some groups but not in the sense you are thinking. We laugh at epic fails by wannabees! 😃
 

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SO through shooting classes, I have changed my form/stance a ton through the years. Modern Samurai has the best class on it and does one on one facetime/zoom coaching
 

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More and more people are videoing themselves (and others) in shooting competitions. You could also watch cop shootouts and see that there's really no right forms or moves.

So I wonder if that concept translates to this. I shoot IDPA and the only form that I'd consider 'form' is shooting when moving, Kinda like a duck in the water, we move from the waist down and keep the top steady and move like the turret of a tank. But when you get out into the public, all that goes out the window. There are just too many variables that go with armed confrontations to nail down specific forms. A good way to realize that is doing some FOF (where you face off with a person in front of you and you both have airsoft guns and there's only one rule- at the buzzer, you commence to shoot them before they shoot you), you find that you do whatever it takes and alot of times, it's not pretty at all. The biggest tool in this realm is the mind (and dry fire and practice). Could what you're saying be some help? Maybe, but I just can't imagine how it would, logistically.
 

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Most gun owners do not think of handgun shooting as a martial art. I am not sure what they actually think of it, but it certainly involves ego and a distinct disdain for anyone who would tell them what to do even in the face of a terrible shooting display.

You do not need some sort of paid service for this. Take a friend with you when you go shooting. One shoots and the other plays the part of instructor. You can continuously trade off and evaluate each other throughout the session. Try learning Paul Sharp's material using this method.

You could also watch cop shootouts and see that there's really no right forms or moves.
There are indeed correct forms and moves that one can do. If there were not, then every cop would hit every time and the criminal would stop their attack immediately. The "form" is dependent upon context. The form used by an NRA pistol competitor is vastly different from self-defense shooting while moving. The following focuses entirely upon self-defense with a handgun, applies to all handguns, and can be used with or without movement and with or without a sight picture. This is not point shooting and the demonstrations are sighted shooting.

You can use this same technique while point shooting, which is required for shooting while moving fast under tight time limits. The time limit is determined by bullets coming toward the shooter which happens to be the reaction time of the target (OODA loop and all that). Even within point shooting, there are many forms (Half Hip, 3/4 Hip, straight arm, Metal-n-Meat, to name a few). We're not concerned with those here. This is a set of physical instructions that may be employed from any angle, at any speed, with or without sights.

Paul Sharp's "Recoil Mitigation"

(Rangemaster Tactical Conference 2016, Memphis, TN)


Training points:


Mitigating muzzle rise from the wrist (Videos 1-4):

1) Lock wrist on each hand that is touching the gun

2) Hard pinky finger pressure

3) Push thumb(s) forward hard

4) Proper grip: High in the tang, high under the trigger guard. Forward thumb on support hand. Check by placing trigger finger and support hand thumb on frame. They should be equal on the frame (point up to check).



Test by attempting to bend the wrist upward. Instructor places finger on wrist tendon to verify (Video 5). The shooter will tighten up and prevent as much movement as possible.



Mitigating side to side muzzle movement (Videos 6-7):

1) Tighten the elbow of each hand on the gun

2) Tighten the shoulder of each hand on the gun


Test by attempting to move the gun in a circle.



Mitigating gun push backwards (Videos 8-13) :



1) Use hard push-pull. Some people think push-pull doesn’t work in a fight so an alternative is to bring your elbows down a bit to pinch your palms together. I have been experimenting with torquing my elbows. It's not up or down; it is turning the bones of the forearm inward. This tightens grip well and locks things in. It works with one or two handed shooting, though two handed shooting is universally more stable. But, in a fight, you may be using one hand to fend off an attacker.

2) Push from the primary hand shoulder.

3) If support hand is on the gun, pull back into the primary hand.

4) Nose over toes. Stance is aggressive and nose should be over or slightly past the forward toe. There are no stances in a fight, but this is the optimal case.



Instructor tests by pressing with continuous pressure against the shooter's hand. Their head should not move very much. The instructor should watch for head movement by comparing to a static item in the background. Properly done, the shooter's head will barely move during recoil. Watch the shooter's toes. They should not rise.


Video 14 is a summary of training points.



The only addendum I have is that you can pinch your palms together a bit to tighten your groups up at speed.
 

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3) If support hand is on the gun, pull back into the primary hand.
Excellent very detailed instructions!

Sometimes one tiny thing messes up the accuracy results: One of my friends was consistently shooting low in spite of all my coaching and her attention to details, and I stood to the side and concentrated on watching only the muzzle as she shot. She was almost imperceptibly dipping the muzzle down as she began her trigger pull. I found a better, more stable grip that enables her to pull/push back and slightly up with her support hand and when she does that correctly, bingo: No more low shots! She is now working to make that new grip automatic muscle memory with all of her 3 guns.

The other thing she needs to be always aware of is not using too much trigger finger so she isn't pushing the gun to the left. Other than that, she is doing "everything" correctly and her accuracy has improved by leaps and bounds. Interesting that with this woman, she shoots most accurately when shooting on the move.

That modified grip is not using the trigger finger of the support hand at all, but using only the other 3 fingers and letting the trigger finger "float" or rest on the front outside of the trigger guard, but not push on it. It is the grip I use most of the time also for all my semi autos, since I shoot mostly very small guns (Ex: SIG P238).
 

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I think you can experiment with the different basic stances and see what you like - but I wouldn't be too concerned.

In a defense situation you are rarely shooting for precision. You need to get the gun out and get a hit on-target before the other guy - which is going to be challenging and extremely stressful.

Concentrate your training on getting the gun up and the sights aligned automatically. Get the pistol to fire almost automatically when the sights align on the target. Shoot multiple rounds in a controllable manner. You need to be comfortable with your firearm. That's why I don't recommend changing pistol types or brands. Pick one and stick with it.

If you have the time to get a precisely aimed shot t a distant target you may be in for legal questions about the extent of the deadly threat.

Most likely any serious confrontation will be up-close and personal, with little time to get a proper stance or perfect sight picture.

There are an infinite number of scenarios, but watching some of them play-out helps you be mentally prepared.

Active Self Protection analyzes many different situations and discusses the options -
 

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Excellent very detailed instructions!

Sometimes one tiny thing messes up the accuracy results: One of my friends was consistently shooting low in spite of all my coaching and her attention to details, and I stood to the side and concentrated on watching only the muzzle as she shot. She was almost imperceptibly dipping the muzzle down as she began her trigger pull. I found a better, more stable grip that enables her to pull/push back and slightly up with her support hand and when she does that correctly, bingo: No more low shots! She is now working to make that new grip automatic muscle memory with all of her 3 guns.

The other thing she needs to be always aware of is not using too much trigger finger so she isn't pushing the gun to the left. Other than that, she is doing "everything" correctly and her accuracy has improved by leaps and bounds. Interesting that with this woman, she shoots most accurately when shooting on the move.

That modified grip is not using the trigger finger of the support hand at all, but using only the other 3 fingers and letting the trigger finger "float" or rest on the front outside of the trigger guard, but not push on it. It is the grip I use most of the time also for all my semi autos, since I shoot mostly very small guns (Ex: SIG P238).
Grip is the essential element for fire control! People think it's trigger pull but they are wrong. Rob Leatham talks about it here:


For the problem described, I would recommend all of these, but in particularly:

1) Turn forearms inward
2) Push pull or at least raising the elbows
3) Lock the wrist joint
4) Tighten the pinky finger

Putting the support trigger finger on the trigger guard or not using is wasteful and reduces grip because it modifies the position of the hand to the detriment of the grip's tension.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Most gun owners do not think of handgun shooting as a martial art. I am not sure what they actually think of it, but it certainly involves ego and a distinct disdain for anyone who would tell them what to do even in the face of a terrible shooting display.
This is the stuff I'm looking for! Thank you so much, great ideas.
 

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Putting the support trigger finger on the trigger guard or not using is wasteful and reduces grip because it modifies the position of the hand to the detriment of the grip's tension.
Except when it works. And for at least these two women (me and my friend) who shoot guns with short grips, it does work quite well.

Lena Miculek made a video showing her own weird grip, and it is a really strange grip form, but as a champion shooter she found that this particular grip increased her time and accuracy FOR HER.
 

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Except when it works. And for at least these two women (me and my friend) who shoot guns with short grips, it does work quite well.

Lena Miculek made a video showing her own weird grip, and it is a really strange grip form, but as a champion shooter she found that this particular grip increased her time and accuracy FOR HER.
I will study that video. There has to be something(s) good to steal from it!
 

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Annnnnd....just so people know...I am not married to any one method of pistol shooting. The Paul Sharp material is new. I started out with my own version of Isoceles in the late 90’s and evolved to a Modified Weaver, back to Isoceles, then point shooting (almost exclusively), the a point shooting/sighted shooting blend, then all force on force with regular beatings and wrestling via Airsoft training, boxing and training knives (South Narc’s material plus point shooting plus some other things), and then to the current blend that is Paul Sharp’s stuff.

I find Paul Sharp’s material very easy to teach. Shooters tend to improve dramatically in a short time.
 

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@tomrkba I had to smile when you talked about shooting being one of the martial arts but most people don't think of it that way! When I first took Tai Chi lessons, about in lesson #2, with the foot placement after making a 45 degree turn, it was "WOW -- That's my shooting stance!!!" That actually helped me to realize that Tai Chi is indeed one of the martial arts, although in its "old people" form it doesn't seem that way.
 
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I figured out how to make The Lena Grip work with my Glock 17 and 21. It looks solid in dry fire.

It does not work with my weapon light mounted :( That is a rather large flaw.
 

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@tomrkba I had to smile when you talked about shooting being one of the martial arts but most people don't think of it that way! When I first took Tai Chi lessons, about in lesson #2, with the foot placement after making a 45 degree turn, it was "WOW -- That's my shooting stance!!!" That actually helped me to realize that Tai Chi is indeed one of the martial arts, although in its "old people" form it doesn't seem that way.
Are you that little old lady in Herndon that “destroys” people with tai chi? I heard she meditates and sort of waltzes through fights. Not sure if it is true, but I figure if someone has been doing a martial art for 50 years, they are probably pretty good...
 

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Are you that little old lady in Herndon that “destroys” people with tai chi? I heard she meditates and sort of waltzes through fights. Not sure if it is true, but I figure if someone has been doing a martial art for 50 years, they are probably pretty good...
I wish! Sigh.

One thing that I learned while doing Tai Chi which helped me (worth more than gold) in shooting, was to do a few Tai Chi warm up exercises just before my turn to shoot in the regular weekly competitions. When you take a very few minutes to focus your mind, relax your body and let both flow together you sure do shoot better! At least I did.

I don't go to those weekly shooting meets anymore due to ongoing health problems. I do have a couple shooting buddies, both of whom I also am coaching, so I still get out to shoot regularly. As I teach them all (one thing at a time!) the self defense "stuff" that hubby and I learned at schools we attended, it reinforces those things and give me needed practice. They always make me do it first to show them how, and that makes me do my best. So in actuality we are helping each other, and that's what friends are for, right?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I wish! Sigh.

One thing that I learned while doing Tai Chi which helped me (worth more than gold) in shooting, was to do a few Tai Chi warm up exercises just before my turn to shoot in the regular weekly competitions. When you take a very few minutes to focus your mind, relax your body and let both flow together you sure do shoot better! At least I did.
I can say, that makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, every sport from Rugby to Disc Golf, you perform better warmed up. Never really thought about taking the time to "warm up" before shooting. I legit appreciate that input and perspective.
 
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