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Hello everyone i am the future owner of a M&P in either 9mm or .40....Just as soon as i find one and know which one to choose...



The problem i am having is that i am going to buy it at budsgunshop but they do not have any 9mm listed as CA aprooved but they do not say its not aprooved....



i am wondering if i can choose any of the M&P that are 10rd and those are CA legal or do i have to look at something else for it to be legal or is just 10RD?



which of these is CA aprooved? if i cant find out i am going to have to get the .40 that says CA aprooved...



-S&W M&P9 9mm NS/NO LOCK 10RD

-S&W M&P9 9mm NS/LOCK 10RD

-S&W M&P9 9mm 4.25 LOCK 10RD



Hopefully one of these are CA aprooved so i can get one already please help......which one is aprroved
 

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Can someone please take this to the thread to the right forum cause i think i was suppose to post in M&P fullsize forum....thank you if you do moderators....
 

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So Ca aprooved is 10rd mag....and mag safety....thats it so i can buy it, am i right?



they all have mag safety in budshop the 10 rd. so they must be ca aprooved....
 

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Check the link I provided. You can get anything you want off that list.
 

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El Fantasma said:
So Ca aprooved is 10rd mag....and mag safety....thats it so i can buy it, am i right?



they all have mag safety in budshop the 10 rd. so they must be ca aprooved....
I just went through this, not to buy from Bud's, but so I could tell my dealer which one I wanted by SKU number. And that's what you'll need to do for Bud's. Call S&W for the CA legal SKU numbers, or if you're in SoCal just visit Turner's - they have most models in stock at semi-reasonable prices.



By the way the only real advantage of buying a full sized 9mm or 40s&w over a 45 is magazine capacity - and guess what - California limit's us to 10 rounds anyway so all three calipers hold the same number of rounds. Ammo prices are within a few dollars a box, recoil is no problem and it's the most effective of the three. But if you have your heart set on 9 or 40, or plan on buying a compact then I suggest the 40S&W.



Before you 9mm guys pile on me - yes 9mm and 40s&w make good sense when your weapon holds 4-5 more rounds - but they don't in California... Nuff said.



I couldn't find the CA legal SKUs for the 9 or 40 but here are the ones for the 45.

109006 - 45ACP with thumb safety (recommended)

109206 - 45ACP no thumb safety



Good hunting.
 

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sholling said:
[quote name='El Fantasma']So Ca aprooved is 10rd mag....and mag safety....thats it so i can buy it, am i right?



they all have mag safety in budshop the 10 rd. so they must be ca aprooved....
I just went through this, not to buy from Bud's, but so I could tell my dealer which one I wanted by SKU number. And that's what you'll need to do for Bud's. Call S&W for the CA legal SKU numbers, or if you're in SoCal just visit Turner's - they have most models in stock at semi-reasonable prices.



By the way the only real advantage of buying a full sized 9mm or 40s&w over a 45 is magazine capacity - and guess what - California limit's us to 10 rounds anyway so all three calipers hold the same number of rounds. Ammo prices are within a few dollars a box, recoil is no problem and it's the most effective of the three. But if you have your heart set on 9 or 40, or plan on buying a compact then I suggest the 40S&W.



Before you 9mm guys pile on me - yes 9mm and 40s&w make good sense when your weapon holds 4-5 more rounds - but they don't in California... Nuff said.



I couldn't find the CA legal SKUs for the 9 or 40 but here are the ones for the 45.

109006 - 45ACP with thumb safety (recommended)

109206 - 45ACP no thumb safety



Good hunting.[/quote]



This is a post I came across on another forum. I thought it was interesting.




gunrnr Post subject: Re: Carry The 40 Caliber?Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:14 pm





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Location: Upwind of Albuquerque, NM, USA sig232 wrote:

This caliber appears to be the hot ticket with the police around the nation. Did you pick this caliber because of this fact or for other reasons?



We carry .40S&W for a few reasons. Following the caliber since abour '93 or so I had (and still do) read all of the professional assessments that I can get my hands on. The .40S&W has proven itself in almost every way possible for both police and civilian carry. What I like about it as a trainer is that I can put it in the hands of an inexperienced shooter of any physical size or either gender and have that person feeling confident and able after two training sessions (1 classroom / 1 range). I can not do that with a .45ACP.



The .40S&W is available in every size and configuration, so it naturally lends itself to CCW as well as duty carry. I have fired a Glock Mod 30 and I, as an experienced shooter and instructor, feel that it is not controllable by anyone without extensive practice. Now, you guys who have 'em and love 'em -- Great for YOU! But understand that while we spend hours talking and expounding about this stuff, and lots of bucks on practicing with our pistols, most "normal" shooters DO NOT. I'm not going to go pulling numbers out of my ... but I would be surprised if most "normal" shooters fire their carry weapon more than 1-2X per year. Such a shooter is not doing him/herself any favors carrying a gun s/he doesn't have full control over.



You 9mm fans -- good for you. There is nothing wrong with the caliber. I've always liked being able to carry 17 rounds and with 9mm it's a big plus. Take that any way you wish. My bottom line is effectiveness and terminal ballistics. The .40S&W is superior. Fact is, in several loadings, the .40S&W beats the .45ACP.



So when a student/customer asks what's good and what's not (which is the way the question is frequently asked) I try to lay out the pros and cons. Many "normal" shooters own only one firearm. ...I know, that's hard for many of "us" to imagine, but it's true. The .40S&W has recoil only slightly greater than a 9mm and significantly lower than a .45ACP. The report is virtually the same as 9mm. Practice ammo is about a buck a box more than 9mm and a few bucks less than .45ACP. Magazine capacity is usually slightly lower than 9mm and somewhat more than .45ACP, but I don't give that a lot of weight when addressing a carry gun. The .40S&W can be had in any size platform that 9mm is offered without significant reduction of controllability. And they cost the same.



Once again, that's my $0.02 worth, and again you got what you paid for.
 

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Sorry long winded reply alert.




What I like about it as a trainer is that I can put it in the hands of an inexperienced shooter of any physical size or either gender and have that person feeling confident and able after two training sessions (1 classroom / 1 range). I can not do that with a .45ACP.
This was probably true when the 1911 was pretty much the only game in most towns. Fortunately it's just not even slightly true anymore and is simply a refection of the writer's prejudges. There is simply very little difference when you shove an otherwise identical full sized weapon in someone's hand. If the writer still has that problem with identical weapons perhaps he needs to look for another line of work.



The .40S&W is available in every size and configuration, so it naturally lends itself to CCW as well as duty carry.
Very true. My Kahr PM40 (see I'm not a 45 bigot
) is probably the best combination of concealability and firepower on the planet. However I submit that the 40C is just a tad harder to hide than my Kimber Ultra Carry and that both are a whole lot more controllable than the Glock 30 with it's funky grip. Heck I can't shoot a Glock worth beans and I've been shooting for 45 years. The grip just doesn't work for me.



Fact is, in several loadings, the .40S&W beats the .45ACP.
Pure fiction if your talking about using weapons with full sized barrels. Now if we're talking 3" barrels then yes the 40 with the right load is at least as effective as a 45 - if it expands (never a given). If neither expands then guess which one makes bigger deeper holes...



These are pretty hot loads from DoubleTap and are their tests when firing from full length barrels through simulated heavy clothing. The bold are the loading I would choose if I used DoubleTap. The numbers speak for themselves...



Projectile @ Muzzle Velocity / Penetration / Expanded Diameter:

9mm+P

115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"

124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"

147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"



40S&W (non +P)

135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps / 12.10" / .72"

155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps / 13.00" / .76"

165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps / 14.0" / .70"

180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps / 14.75" / .68"

200gr XTP @ 1050fps / 17.75" / .59"



45acp (non +P)

185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps / 12.75" / .82"

200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps / 14.25" / .88"

230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps / 15.25" / .95"
Federal HST Numbers

40S&W

Federal HST 40 S&W 180 gr. / 13.0” / 0.788”

Federal HST 45 ACP 230 gr. / 14.0” / 0.850” (I keep the +P version in my full sized 45s)
If you had to choose - which one would you least like to be hit with? I don't want to be hit by any of them but I know which one I'd least like to be hit by and it didn't take a PhD to decide.




The .40S&W has recoil only slightly greater than a 9mm and significantly lower than a .45ACP.
I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. Perhaps the writer found some particularly anemic loadings for the 40. I own all three calibers and find that the 40S&W has significantly more recoil than a 9mm. It's simple physics. a 147gr projectile accelerating to 1200fps in 4" is going to recoil harder than a 147gr projectile accelerating to 1100fps over those same 4". In fact for most people the perceived recoil of a 147gr projectile accelerating to 1200fps in 4" is greater than the perceived recoil of a 230gr projectile accelerating to 1000fps over 5" - the standard barrel length for the 45acp. In ft/lbs of the recoil of the 45 may be greater but perceived recoil is about the same or less due to the sharp snap of the 40's recoil. Trust me my PM40 is zero fun to shoot! In the end the sole advantage of a full sized 40S&W is that allows more misses between hits before running dry - critical with the shooting skills of the average LEO. In a California legal full sized sized form factor weapon that advantage goes out the window. Thus my recommendation.



The bottom line is that for every instructor that espouses that stuff you'll find an equally qualified or better qualified instructor or two or three that swears by the 45.




Edited to add 9mm numbers - note that the 9mm numbers are +P and that the 40S&W and 45ACP numbers are non +P
 

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Again, most all that is opinion also.



To compare recoil of different calibers you need to shoot them side by side in the same gun.

For example: a couple competition loads

-M&P 9mm fullsize firing an 130 power factor load

-M&P .40 fullsize firing an 170 power factor load

When I do this, the .40 feels like it has only slightly more recoil, in my opinion.



I can do the same test with SD loads:

-M&P 9mm with Speer Gold Dot 124+P, power factor of 151

-M&P .40 with Speer Gold Dot 180, power factor of 185

Again, when I shoot these back to back the .40 feels like it has slightly more recoil, in my opinion.



My wife is way more recoil sensitive than I am. If she were to shoot these back to back, she would probably report a greater difference between loads.
 

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akr said:
(note, these are not akr's words, but someone's opinion he posted)



We carry .40S&W for a few reasons. Following the caliber since abour '93 or so I had (and still do) read all of the professional assessments that I can get my hands on.


Me, too.



The .40S&W has proven itself in almost every way possible for both police and civilian carry.


It's also been involved in a number of significant failures to stop, which can be said of any other commonly issued LE caliber except, perhaps, 357 SIG. I've yet to hear a verified report of 357 SIG hits to the upper torso which didn't end a fight more or less immediately.



What I like about it as a trainer is that I can put it in the hands of an inexperienced shooter of any physical size or either gender and have that person feeling confident and able after two training sessions (1 classroom / 1 range). I can not do that with a .45ACP.


Perhaps if the .45 you have is too big for the student's hands, but otherwise there is no legitimate argument that a .40 is easier to shoot/teach than a .45 and -- as was discussed here very recently -- most people find the exact opposite to be true.



The .40S&W is available in every size and configuration, so it naturally lends itself to CCW as well as duty carry.


So is the 9mm, 357 SIG, and to a lesser extent .45 ACP.



I have fired a Glock Mod 30 and I, as an experienced shooter and instructor, feel that it is not controllable by anyone without extensive practice.


I've owned a Glock 30 and I, as an experienced shooter and instructor, feel that it is a particularly soft shooting gun easily controllable by anyone who can shoot a .40 well.



Now, you guys who have 'em and love 'em -- Great for YOU! But understand that while we spend hours talking and expounding about this stuff, and lots of bucks on practicing with our pistols, most "normal" shooters DO NOT. I'm not going to go pulling numbers out of my ... but I would be surprised if most "normal" shooters fire their carry weapon more than 1-2X per year. Such a shooter is not doing him/herself any favors carrying a gun s/he doesn't have full control over.


Agreed 100%, which is why I'm amazed at the next comment:



You 9mm fans -- good for you. There is nothing wrong with the caliber. I've always liked being able to carry 17 rounds and with 9mm it's a big plus. Take that any way you wish. My bottom line is effectiveness and terminal ballistics. The .40S&W is superior. Fact is, in several loadings, the .40S&W beats the .45ACP.


Bullocks. My bottom line is effectiveness and terminal ballistics, too, and anyone who's done a little critical thinking on the issue can see that the differences in terminal ballistics are somewhere between tiny and meaningless.



Furthermore, "effectiveness" means more than just how big the bullet is when you pull it out of jello. So if you really do acknowledge that most people won't get nearly enough training time to become proficient, then the 9mm (which is less expensive to practice with and easier to control) is a better choice.
 

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ToddG said:
[quote name='akr']The .40S&W has proven itself in almost every way possible for both police and civilian carry.


It's also been involved in a number of significant failures to stop, which can be said of any other commonly issued LE caliber except, perhaps, 357 SIG. I've yet to hear a verified report of 357 SIG hits to the upper torso which didn't end a fight more or less immediately.

[/quote]

The caliber cannot be blamed for a missed shot. The .40 is a fine and proven caliber. You seem to be under the impression that .357 Sig is somehow superior to other major calibers and will "end a fight more or less immediately." The reality is .357 is ballistically similar to 9mm +p.
 

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choochboost said:
[quote name='ToddG']I've yet to hear a verified report of 357 SIG hits to the upper torso which didn't end a fight more or less immediately.
The caliber cannot be blamed for a missed shot. The .40 is a fine and proven caliber. You seem to be under the impression that .357 Sig is somehow superior to other major calibers and will "end a fight more or less immediately." The reality is .357 is ballistically similar to 9mm +p.[/quote]



choochboost -- Not sure what you read, but it wasn't what I wrote.




Unlike 9mm, .40, and .45, I know of no instance of upper torso hits with the 357 SIG that failed to stop a bad guy. So we're not talking about misses, we're talking about upper torso hits. Off the top of my head, the Virginia State Police had a significant and well-publicized failure with 9mm out of their MP5's, the FBI has had failures with their forties, and I personally worked on a case more than a decade ago where a victim was shot at point blank range with a .45 fifteen times and was able to walk himself to a hospital more than a mile away afterwards.



There have also been countless success stories with each of these calibers.



Yes, I do happen to think that as far as terminal performance is concerned, 357 SIG has an edge. However, it also has its drawbacks: cost of ammo, loud report, limited selection of both guns & ammunition. One agency I've dealt with in the past also considered switching away from it because it chews up steel targets faster than the others.




357 SIG is "ballistically similar to 9mm +p" in the same way 10mm is "ballistically similar to .40 S&W." They're similar, but the former delivers more energy at a higher velocity. Whether that means anything is a near-religious debate that will be waged for years to come.



Personally, I carry a 9mm. I use one gun for carry, teaching, competition, etc. and 9mm is the best choice for me.
 

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Furthermore, "effectiveness" means more than just how big the bullet is when you pull it out of jello.
I find myself in agreement with most of your posting, including this statement. However it needs a qualification. All things being otherwise equal ""effectiveness" means more than just how big the bullet is when you pull it out of jello." Given equal weapons and weapons handling skills, equal shot placement etc then depth and diameter become critically important. One must also keep in mind that a larger diameter of the crush cavity also means that what might have been a near miss of a vital organ has a greater probability of becoming a hit to said organ. In addition the added mass of the larger slower projectile reduces the probability of the projectile being deflected within the body.



The bottom line is that a well placed shot that does not penetrate deeply enough or cause enough damage to stop a 300lb drugged out bad guy can get you killed.



It also gets down to when and where said act of self defense takes place. As an instructor you deal with a lot of different requirements including law enforcement professionals that have a sad likelihood of getting into a pitched gun battle and folks that live far enough out in the country that some distance may be involved. In both cases firepower rocks. We suburban denizens are faced with the fact that most gun battles involving civilians take place at less than 10 feet and are over in 5 shots or less. In which case all things being equal great big honking but well placed holes rock. :wink:



So if you really do acknowledge that most people won't get nearly enough training time to become proficient, then the 9mm (which is less expensive to practice with and easier to control) is a better choice.
Once again we are nearly in agreement. Personally I'd rather see someone go through a brick of 500 .22s and a box of 50 45rds or 2 boxes of 45s at less than $24 a session than 2 boxes of 9mm @ $20 a session but both (all three?) are valid ideas in that we both agree that lots of practice is best.
 

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sholling -- As I said, the debate about whether "big 'n slow" or "light 'n fast" is better will rage forever. I would argue that the small differences in bullet diameter are not nearly as meaningful as big-bore advocates believe. Talk to trauma surgeons. They will tell you it's impossible to determine, by looking at a wound, whether a bullet was 0.355" or .45" (or .65" vs. .80" for JHPs).



Furthermore, most of the data offered in support of the deep penetrating heavy bullet comes from Fackler, whose work is fatally flawed because he only examined corpses. So in any instance where a bullet may have caused death but not incapacitation, Fackler counts it as a "stop," basically; while any instance where the target's action was halted but he didn't die is ignored.



There has also been recent peer-reviewed research by Courtney & Courtney linking higher velocity and higher energy with greater likelihood of incapacitation completely separate from any permanent wound cavity. Essentially, they show a link between ballistic pressure waves inside the human body and the rate at which incapacitation is achieved.



I'm not saying the .45 is ineffective or that I'd like to volunteer as a target. 8) But there is just as much science, data, religion, and SWAG'ing in favor of lighter, faster, higher-energy handgun rounds.



The truth is, if you make good ammunition selection decisions, the caliber you choose isn't nearly as important as we make it out to be.
 

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ToddG said:
...There has also been recent peer-reviewed research by Courtney & Courtney linking higher velocity and higher energy with greater likelihood of incapacitation completely separate from any permanent wound cavity. Essentially, they show a link between ballistic pressure waves inside the human body and the rate at which incapacitation is achieved...


I would love to take a look at these studies. Is it possible?
 
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