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Discussion Starter #1
I've recently read an article in a magazine (I think Handgunner?) by this same title. It was very, very interesting and spun me to a different point of view on CCW circumstances. The article told of the neccecities to being justified in using deadly force, and also included a few scenarios that explained how difficult it is to know the entire situation you find yourself in. One of these scenarios is you're walking by a convenience store. You see an armed man run out of the door and another man shouting after him "stop him, he just robbed us!" 9 out of 10 times it's going to be just as simple as it seems. But what if the armed man running out of the store was the store owner running for help after grabbing the burglar's gun, and the man shouting after him was the burglar, trying to buy some time with misdirection?



One story I was told was that a man came upon another huge, muscular-looking man down on top of a small lady just beating the crap out of her. The man knocked out the big guy from behind and the lady escaped. Turned out the lady had just mugged the big guy and had stabbed him repeatedly in the abdomen.



One other story I've heard was that a woman was being raped and a man came upon the situation and shot the man. Later on it turned out the woman was an anti-gun liberal, as she pressed charges on the man who was trying to save her life because she thought he used excessive force. You have to be careful out there.



Ask yourself: am I ready to give up my life (actual or financial) for a complete stranger? It's because of situations like this that when I do attain a CCW, I plan on only stepping out for myself or my family. I KNOW who my children are allowed to be with, and I KNOW what's going on when I'm out with my family. Even if it's justified use, you can still (will still) be taken to court by the families involved, and even sometimes the victims whose life you've saved. It's not worth ruining the rest of my life by being taken to jail or being sued to bankruptcy for a complete stranger. But it is worth giving my life for the protection of my wife and children. The good book says, any man not willing to provide for his family is worse than an infidel. The lord has given me a know-so-salvation, so I know exactly where I'm headed! There's nothing I wouldn't do to ensure my childrens' futures or to protect my wife.



I'd like to take this opportunity to invite your experience or other scenarios you've learned of.
 

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When I teach lethal force justification stuff to CCW'ers, I teach the concept of The Only Reasonable Option, or TORO. If there is another reasonable option, take it. Run away, let the guy steal your wallet/car/VCR, whatever. If you follow that approach, odds are anything you do will be considered a justifiable use of force. Of course, "reasonable" doesn't mean just anything you can justify to yourself. It means a jury of average strangers who don't read Ayoob or mp-pistol.com are going to decide whether you really needed to do that or not.



Yes, some states are more permissive and allow use of lethal force under a wider range of circumstances. But if you're looking for an opportunity to shoot someone, if you're out hunting for an excuse, you're probably not listening to anyone warning you of the costs involved.



Having said that, the "what if" scenarios can get crazy. Yes, it's conceivabe that a police officer in undercover gang clothes was attacked by a psychotic knife-wielding nun, wrestled the knife away from her, and is now kneeling over her plunging a knife into her heart before she draws the derringer he spied momentarily in her robes. So the next time you see a huge gang banger stabbing a nun, you should probably ask for ID before doing anything rash. :roll:



But that's another aspect of the "Reasonable" in TORO. Is the risk to your personal health, personal safety, personal freedom, and personal finances worth pulling the trigger? If not, don't.
 

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Yeah those situations you never know everything isnt always what it seems and adrenaline, fear and protection kick in the obvious route is what most people would do... Do you have a link to that it seems like a great article..
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I googled it and all I could find was that it was in the Aug/Sept issue of Guns & Ammo Handguns, written by David Kenik, and the full title is "Heroic Consequences: Questions to ask yourself before going in defense of others"



If anyone can find on the magazine's website a link to the actual article, please post! I found a long list of thier articles, but this one wasn't mentioned.
 

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I was taught that you have to decide is it better to be judged by 12 or carried by 6. Several weeks ago some friends of mine went to a fast food joint to grab something to eat. I didn't go. When they came back they told me that some woman had rear ended some large guys car. This guy was also under the influence of some illicit drugs. He responded by pulling her out of the car and beating her senseless. He pretty much kicked her face in. When the local cops got there he came at them...he was subdued by OC and tazing (along with several officers manhandling him). It made me think that if I had been there would I have drawn down on this guy. I also realized that if I had been there and drawn my firearm I probably would have had to shoot (as this guy had charged the cops he probably would have come at me.) Would this shooting have been justified? Would I have been taken to court? Would I lose a civil suit? Thinking about I realized that the answer was most likely YES to all three. So I'm going to get some OC spray and carry it. It would be nice to have some escalation of force. I'm also looking into that NRA self defense insurance. I figure I have car insurance...I stand to lose a lot more if I'm ever taken to court for using my firearm.
 

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Fire1 said:
So I'm going to get some OC spray and carry it.
Its just another force option which can be nice to have but don't put too much faith in it. It is not always effective.
 

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choochboost said:
[quote name='Fire1']So I'm going to get some OC spray and carry it.
Its just another force option which can be nice to have but don't put too much faith in it. It is not always effective.[/quote]



And if you don't know what you're doing, OC can be as much a danger to yourself as the person you're trying to spray. I'd recommend the foam style. Though it's harder to get a "good hit" it usually leads to a lot less collateral contamination.
 

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I had to go through OC training when I started standing security at my base. I'm fairly comfortable with it...besides there's no way I'm gonna carry an ASP. I know it doesn't affect everyone but I figure if I do end up in a shoot and I've already OC'd him it'll help in any case as I had tried Non leathal force just prior to shooting.
 

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It's a personal choice for every man to make these decisions. I think too many people think of the legalities instead of right and wrong. So you see a guy kicking in the face of a woman for rear ending his car and you say I don't want to do anything because I might get sued. What if that was what someone said to you when explaining why he let some guy beat or kill your mother,daughter,wife or any loved one for that matter. I know I could not live with myself if I did nothing. Sometime one must risk life and liberty to stand up for justice...



As far as stopping a crime that doesn't involve a life or death situation then you can really think it through. Life is the one thing in this world that is worth protecting at all costs because you can never get it back if you lose it. Just my opinion.
 

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99ncxj said:
I have to agree with Todd, if its not my self, my wife or my kids...its probably not going to get pulled.


Just to be clear, I'm not saying I'd only use force to protect myself or my family. As Ducttape4all points out, there are moral and ethical considerations as well as legal ones. But those issues are of a personal nature and no one can make such decisions for someone else.
 

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A couple days ago a young woman was raped behind a gas station in my town. There were two men, one of them with a knife and it was early in the morning. If I stumbled across that, I'd probably shoot them both.
 

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Ducttape4all said:
It's a personal choice for every man to make these decisions. I think too many people think of the legalities instead of right and wrong. So you see a guy kicking in the face of a woman for rear ending his car and you say I don't want to do anything because I might get sued. What if that was what someone said to you when explaining why he let some guy beat or kill your mother,daughter,wife or any loved one for that matter. I know I could not live with myself if I did nothing. Sometime one must risk life and liberty to stand up for justice...



As far as stopping a crime that doesn't involve a life or death situation then you can really think it through. Life is the one thing in this world that is worth protecting at all costs because you can never get it back if you lose it. Just my opinion.


No...I was saying that if I had been there I would have drawn down on him. I just think its better to have other options and an escalation of force available. I like to think things out personally. I agree there is right and there is wrong...but if I go to jail for these legalities what is to become of MY wife and my children. Especially after I get sued and probable lose everything. Any person who just says they would shoot someone without thinking of the consequeces is irresponsible and foolhardy.
 

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I realize we can play what if's and think up situations, but as a relatively new CCW carrier (just over a year) I still rack my brain every once in a while on justification and when would I use force vs. when I should try and retreat. The Castle Doctrine here in FL definately helps with a few situations, but my question to all of you is have you run across some good liturature that could help better prepare someone like myself if god forbid, I find myself in that kind of situation?



I know it will be 90% situation dependant, but there has to be something more than just the black and white laws that come with the CCW packet, and classes. Like most other things in life, if the first time you give serious thought to using lethal force is when you pull your firearm in aggression, then you are already behind the powercurve.
 

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I have contemplated some of these scenario's day in, and day out. Being that Im a Paramedic I also have the reasoning of whether or not I would render aid to the POS, after I took the time to decide if I am going to shoot him/her, or not? I just assume I will know when it is the right time to use deadly force, but I know where assumptions can lead as well. On that note, Im not a Police officer and I think we as CHL carriers already know that. However, I feel its my duty as a Firefighter/Paramedic to protect lives/property, and that includes preventing some Anger Induced scumbag from beating a women to within inches of death right in front of me!! I have given even more serious thought to carrying OC as "Non Lethal" approach towards threat de-esclation, but feel that this would start to impose on LEO duty and in the event I felt there was a need to use that amount of force than I would more than likely need to use the threat of deadly force already. Im not there to break up fights between two idiots throwing down over a girl, but I feel that I couldnt live with letting some guy beat someone else's wife, sister, mother, or daughter and not using my ability to protect her from death or disability.
 

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jbparrothd21 said:
I realize we can play what if's and think up situations, but as a relatively new CCW carrier (just over a year) I still rack my brain every once in a while on justification and when would I use force vs. when I should try and retreat. The Castle Doctrine here in FL definately helps with a few situations, but my question to all of you is have you run across some good liturature that could help better prepare someone like myself if god forbid, I find myself in that kind of situation?



I know it will be 90% situation dependant, but there has to be something more than just the black and white laws that come with the CCW packet, and classes. Like most other things in life, if the first time you give serious thought to using lethal force is when you pull your firearm in aggression, then you are already behind the powercurve.
In the Gravest Extreme, by Masaad Ayoob is a good book on the subject.

Did your CCW training in Florida cover the legalities of Florida Law? It would be wise to find a Pro-Gun Attorney and talk to him about what is legal in the state.
 

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tomahawk5 said:
In the Gravest Extreme, by Masaad Ayoob is a good book on the subject.

Did your CCW training in Florida cover the legalities of Florida Law? It would be wise to find a Pro-Gun Attorney and talk to him about what is legal in the state.


Thank you for the reply; yes I did get a copy of the Florida laws which apply to CCW and Castle Doctrine. And I will check out that book; that is exactly what I was looking for. I should definately get the number of a pro-gun lawyer, do you know where I could find a listing of good lawyers?
 

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Fire1 said:
I had to go through OC training when I started standing security at my base. I'm fairly comfortable with it...besides there's no way I'm gonna carry an ASP. I know it doesn't affect everyone but I figure if I do end up in a shoot and I've already OC'd him it'll help in any case as I had tried Non leathal force just prior to shooting.


Or it could be viewed as you shooting someone who was already clearly incapacitated and obviously not a threat to your life. Prosecutors are lawyers just like the rest, and if they go to court, they go to win, not be honest and reasonable.
 

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in the case of the robber fleeing from the conveince store... think about it.



he got the stuff, and was fleeing. if that man robbed your home... once his back is turned to flee, you CAN NOT shoot him. you CAN NOT shoot to protect your stuff... only your life. (those of you in "shoot first" states can quit reading this ).



you are not the police (if you are police, you can quit reading this)... you may not pull your gun in a law enforcement manner. it is to be pulled with intent to protect yourself from serious harm or death.



if you saw that robber... tackle him, and even beat on him enough to keep him restrained. or get a description to aid the police. hop in your vehicle and follow him while you have 911 on the phone. just dont pull a gun on him. it's not legally stable enough to take a risk on.



keep in mind... once you tackle him (starting a physical confrontation), you've officially lost the right to use your gun. so if he's more badass than you... expect a serious butt kicking that you have to take. (unless he whups you to a bloody pulp, then pulls out a knife to cut your heart out as a souvenier... at which point, i hope your scrambled brain remembers that you have a gun). let a fleeing man go... you'll probably never win that court battle.



as far as defending a victim from serious harm... do the minimal amount to help them, WITHOUT a gun if at all possible.



remember, even in one of those "mistaken perception" situations... a court will be far more forgiving of you for kicking an undercover cop in the back of the head, than they will be for shooting him.



IF YOU HAVE EVEN ONE SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT... DONT TOUCH YOUR GUN.



damn, i know this is going to start some arguments...
 

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jbparrothd21 said:
[quote name='tomahawk5']In the Gravest Extreme, by Masaad Ayoob is a good book on the subject.

Did your CCW training in Florida cover the legalities of Florida Law? It would be wise to find a Pro-Gun Attorney and talk to him about what is legal in the state.


Thank you for the reply; yes I did get a copy of the Florida laws which apply to CCW and Castle Doctrine. And I will check out that book; that is exactly what I was looking for. I should definately get the number of a pro-gun lawyer, do you know where I could find a listing of good lawyers?[/quote]

You can call the National Rifle Association and ask them (consider joining if you have not already). They should have a list of Pro-gun lawyers in your area. Also you could ask your CCW Instructor. They should know some Pro-gun lawyers as well. Good luck.
 
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