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Discussion Starter #1
Who saw this on Futureweapons last night on the Discovery channel? I watched it before flipping back to 24, and it seems like the perfect assault rifle. They buried it in sand, gave it a quick shake and fired it flawlessly. This was also done after submerging the rifle in water. Does anyone think our military should switch to a rifle like this, or stick with the m16/m4? Just asking, I don't really know wnough to give an opinion, but this does seem as reliable and versatile as a rifle can be.



Ciao,

Effy
 

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The 416 is pretty cool, but remember its a TV show and marketing guys in charge of the weapons, testing and such. I will reserve final judgement when it passes DoD testing. However, given HK's stance towards US civilians I would not hold your breath on being able to get your hands on one; or the 417 (308 version) for that matter.



There are also a number of US based manufacturers making their version of the 416; which in a simplified description, is nothing more than a piston driven M16/M4. I am sure that there is more to it, but that is the jist of it. On the US side POF is currently making a piston driven upper for the AR system. Magpul is also in the process of making one as is Bushmaster.
 

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Larry Vickers told our class last year that the H&K 416 underwent over 250,000 rounds in testing. Mean rounds between failures was on the order of 10,000 rounds. And that's not treating them nice, it's not even lubing them.



"Delta" uses them right now. The only specops types that don't like them to my knowledge are SEALs, something about wet to dry transitions.



They are, in addition to very reliable, works of art, IMO.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I live in CA so I couldn't get my hands on a HK 416, AR15, AK 47 or anything else like those. This is why I know little about these weapons except from what I see on TV or read in magazines. Anyway it looked like a good rifle. ::Shrug:: I'm not crazy about short barrelled 5.56mm rifles like the m4. I would think a longer barrel (m16) or larger round would be a better fit, but again, what do I know? I have no hands on, or field experience.



Ciao,

Effy
 

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I know a few guys with them in Iraq right now, not Delta guys either (they don't exist after all), but private contractors. They like them, but they tell me that it's probably not worth the extra money to bother getting one for my "house to range duties". However I am told that once the KAC one hits the market, to check it out. Apparently Reed Knight is gunning for the civy market in a big way.
 

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I haven't shot the HK yet but I did get to shoot the Sig 556 in single, 3 round burst & full auto. They dunked in water and shot with no problems and since it was in the desert, the sand blowing around did not affect it either. It is very accurate but it is a little heavier than the M-16.
 

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4However I am told that once the KAC one hits the market, to check it out. Apparently Reed Knight is gunning for the civy market in a big way


I was under the impression that KAC's stuff is vaporware to civilians. Lots of promises but no delivery, or at least never in the quantities and time frames promised.



As for the rifle on future weapons getting buried in sand, The current M4 would be just as fine if it was buried in the same manner as the HK rifle: with its dust cover closed. The main benefit to a piston style upper is that the cleaning intervals are roughly 3 times that of the current direct gas impingement, and the bolt carrier group suffers from a lot less fatigue due to heat cycles.



I would much prefer the whole damn Army adopt the FN SCAR-L then we dick around with HK anymore. Look at the XM8 debacle. Plus, there are rumors of a civy SCAR-L as soon as '08. HK turns its nose up at the US civilian market. HK makes some great weapons, but I'll be damned if they don't seem arrogant.
 

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I agree on the vaporware of KAC, but apparently Reed is on a mission. he's got the largest manufacturing facility for AR stuff in North America, next to Colt and Colt Canada, and some say more than either of those two. From what I've been told he's pissed at all the knock offs of his stuff, FF rails, etc, and wants to knock those guys out of the market.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.
 

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Gas Piston or Gas Trap carbines...

Hey guys, so what's the word on POF and the new "M16" revolution, anyone hear what's new with the Gas Piston rifles and they're progress/downfalls? DSA as well as Bushmaster has been selling them, as well as Colt will be coming out with their version of a piston rifle [feed them wallets AR-Fiends]. I keep hearing great things, I mean I've shot them and find them to be very accurate and reliable; put 1000+ rounds through one last weekend, minimal carbon/powder deposits without a single hiccup. But one "gunsmith" not only said the contrary, he urged anyone to stay away from them - then tried to point out that the parts aren't as reliable as the traditional Carbines. I've heard hate talk before, but this guy sounds like he's running an AR-15 impingement site somewhere and can't stand the competition?



Just checking if you guys have had any experience/bad luck with the gas pistons.



1-§hº†
 

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The piston upper units are better applied to SBRs and fully automatic weapons. I've heard nothing but excellent reports from owners of these uppers, that include POFs, Leitner Wise and HK.
 

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I read an article recently - complaining about the weapons that are issued to the military right now. The pentagon doesn't want to spend tons on weapons, and some congress members were pushing for piston type weapons - newer types.



The HK was mentioned. Apparently, it is too expensive.



There are some HK's in use by the military now - but apparently they are just using 1/2 of the rifle - I can't remember if it is the upper or lower.
 

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Considering that HK refuses to live up to its "promise" to build a US based assembly/manufactring facility, good luck in getting that blanket DoD check. Not that I think that would be abad thing. There are a good number fo US based companies making or designing piston driven AR's. Leitner Weise, POF, MagPul to name a few. HK makes good product, but from my personal perspective, I would love to see their arrogant a$$eses get knocked down a peg or two
 

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The 416 is a sweet shooter. I had a chance to shoot LAV's gun and the thing was a tack driver. Supposedly piston guns show a decrease in accuracy, but I didnt see it in the one i was using.
 

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Slavex said:
I agree on the vaporware of KAC, but apparently Reed is on a mission. he's got the largest manufacturing facility for AR stuff in North America, next to Colt and Colt Canada, and some say more than either of those two. From what I've been told he's pissed at all the knock offs of his stuff, FF rails, etc, and wants to knock those guys out of the market.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.


Well, as soon as KAC makes stuff you can buy at reasonable prices, then he can start attacking the market they made by never having stuff available at any price, much less something reasonably affordable.



If they have economies of scale going, why are their 2-stage triggers $300? I'd like one for my ar-10, because they will reliably light off 308 surplus, but I can make a $100 RRA 2-stage trigger do the same with a little elbow grease and inginuity.
 
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