MP-Pistol Forum banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
If you’re ever involved in a Defending Your Life Shooting

If you’re ever involved in a Defending Your Life Shooting…Here are some VERY HELPFUL TIPS TO FOLLOW.



Read this in CCW Mag and it’s the same advise I receive in my Weapons Training Classes…..



Follow these steps in their order if you are involved in a shooting:



A. Call 911, advise the dispatcher that there has been a shooting, and request an ambulance. This could be for you and/or your attacker.



B. Give only your name and your location. Never give out information about the incident. Say something like, “He/ they were trying to kill me,” or just say that you are too upset at this time to give a statement.



C. Call your attorney. He/She will advise you to say nothing until they are present.



D. As soon as you hear a siren, holster your firearm. Have no handgun or weapon visible in your hands when the officers arrive.



E. Remember, anything that you say that is overheard by EMT personnel, your neighbors, an onlooker or a police officer could come back to haunt you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Not sure about that holster your weapon part.



My BIL is a Police and he, as well as others I know, said (assuming the scene does not have bystanders) to leave your weapon on the ground (if at all possible, locked open) and have your hands up when they arrive. Not because they presume you are guilty, but so they feel more secure in the situation.



YMMV
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,062 Posts
I'll take it up a notch.



From http://firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs.../article411.htm



Communicating with Police after You’re Involved in a Self-defense Incident



If you’re ever involved in any incident in which you used force, or you were visibly prepared to use force, against another person in self-defense you must be very careful in what you say to police. These incidents involve situations in which you:



* Physically laid hands on another person in self-defense against criminal attack.

* Visibly handled a weapon (pepper spray, knife, firearm, club, etc.) in preparation to defend yourself against criminal attack.

* Used a weapon to actively defend yourself against criminal attack.



Whenever you’re compelled to defend yourself against criminal assault it’s imperative that you personally report the incident to police as soon as possible. Your objective is to go on record as the complainant, because "the system" usually, but not always, regards the initial reporting party as the victim. You want the system to consider your story first, so you can establish the fact that you’re the innocent citizen who was forced to defend yourself against wrongful criminal violence. If you delay, or fail to report the incident altogether, your adversary can seize the initiative and report you to police as the offender.



When you dial 9-1-1 you want to be prepared to tell the dispatcher the following:



* You were threatened or attacked.

* You used force to defend yourself.

* The location where the incident took place.

* Your present location.

* Request police to make contact with you.

* Request medical assistance for yourself and/or the attacker, if needed.



Examples:



"A man just attacked me with a knife in the parking garage at South County Mall. I shot him with my gun to protect myself. There was another man with him who ran down the alley behind Penny’s. It happened near the elevator on the first floor of the garage. I’m calling you from the payphone in Penny’s. Please have the police contact me here. You should also send an ambulance."



"A kid broke into my home and attacked me with a knife. I shot him with my gun to protect myself. He collapsed outside the door of my bedroom. I’m calling you from the telephone in my bedroom. Please send the police and an ambulance."



"A woman attacked me in the parking lot at the Safeway on Sycamore Street. I sprayed her with pepper spray to defend myself. She fled into Safeway. I’m calling you from the payphone outside Safeway. Please send an ambulance and have the police contact me here."



The dispatcher will probably query you for more details about the incident. To minimize the risk of giving conflicting statements to authorities you should avoid giving out anymore information about the incident itself. You can, however, provide the dispatcher with administrative information such as your name, address and telephone number, a description of any accomplices, and their location or direction of travel when you last saw them.



To minimize your risk of criminal and civil liability you should provide the absolute minimum amount of information in your initial statement to police so they’re informed of the basic circumstances:



* Briefly describe what you were doing at the scene immediately prior to the incident.

* Briefly describe the attacker’s criminal actions that wrongfully endangered your physical safety or the safety of others.

* Briefly state the reason why you used force against the attacker.

* Immediately invoke your Constitutional right to remain silent.



Your initial statement can be as short as three sentences: "The man over there attacked me with a club. I shot him to defend myself. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but I must first talk to my attorney before I can give you any more details."



Make only one initial statement to police before you talk to an attorney. If another patrol officer or detective begins questioning you, politely tell the officer something like: "I’ve already given my statement to Officer Smith and I have no further comment. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but what I told Officer Smith is all that I can say until I talk to my attorney."



Here are several examples of initial statements:



"I was walking to my apartment from the grocery store. The man I described approached me and threatened to beat me if I didn’t hand over my wallet. I sprayed him with pepper spray in self-defense to escape. I don’t know where he went. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but this is all I can tell you until I talk to my attorney."



"I was washing my hands after using the toilet. A group of young men walked in, blocked the exit and threatened to beat me. I drew my knife in preparation to defend myself and they fled out the bathroom. I didn’t see the direction in which they fled. I can give you a general description of them. I’d like to be able to tell you more, but I have to talk to my lawyer first."



"I’d just parked my car and was getting out when the woman over there approached me and accused me of taking her parking space. She crowded me against my car with her body, hit me with her fists and pulled my hair. I shoved her away from me and she fell to the ground. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but I have to consult with my attorney before I can tell you any more."



"I was walking to the stadium with my family. The man over there was with two others who surrounded us and threatened us with knives. I shot him to protect my family and myself. The other two men ran away. I can give you a general description of them. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but this is all I can tell you until I talk to my attorney."



"I was standing in line waiting to buy tickets when I stepped on the shoe of a boy who was standing in line behind me. He and several other boys attacked me, knocked me to the ground and began kicking and stomping me. I shot at them in self-defense. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but I’ve got to talk with my attorney before I can tell you anymore."



"I was standing over there at the bus shelter waiting for the bus. That man shoved me from behind by surprise and knocked me to the ground. He threatened to beat me with a padlock that was tied to a bandanna. I drew my gun and shot him to protect myself. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but I can’t give you any further statements until I talk to my attorney."



"I was sitting on the bench over there reading my book when I heard my son scream. I looked up and saw the man over there dragging him into that van. I hollered at the man to stop, but he ignored me. He got into the van with my son and started the engine. I shot him to protect my son. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but this is the only statement I can give you until I consult with my attorney."



"I was awakened from my sleep by noises I heard outside. I went out to investigate and the boy over there attacked me with that screwdriver. I shot him to protect myself. He was with some other boys who ran away after I shot him. I caught only a fleeting glimpse of them and I was unable to get a good description. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but I can’t tell you anymore until I talk to my lawyer."



"I was stopped at the side of the road changing a flat tire. The person over there was with a group of people who stopped their car and attacked me. He pointed a gun at me and I shot him to protect myself. The others ran to the car, got in and drove away. I can give you a description of the car they were in, and a general description of the other attackers. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but this is all I can tell you until after I seek legal counsel."



"I was driving home from the store when I ran into the back of that man’s pickup with my car. I got out of my car to see if he was all right. He got out of his pickup and charged at me with a baseball bat. I shot him in self-defense. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but I must talk with my attorney before I can give you anymore details."



"I was working in my cubicle when I heard what sounded like gunshots. I left my desk to investigate and I saw the man over there shooting at my co-workers. I shot him to protect myself. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but this is all I can tell you until I talk to my attorney."



"I was home from work because I have the flu. The man over there broke into my home and tried to attack me. I shot him to protect myself. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but this the only statement I can give to you until I talk with my attorney."



"I was asleep in bed. The man over there broke into my home and attacked me. I shot him in self-defense. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but this is all I can tell you until I talk to my attorney."



"I was at the ATM withdrawing money. The man over there approached me and ordered me to give him my money. He implied he had a gun in his coat pocket and threatened to shoot me. I shot him to protect myself. I want to cooperate with your investigation and I’ll give you a more detailed statement after I talk to my attorney."



Warning: The incidents described above are provided only as examples of brief verbal statements to give to police. The example statements do not describe the totality of circumstances involved, and they should not be considered as examples of lawful self-defense situations.



Be prepared to remain in police custody for investigation of assault, aggravated assault or homicide, depending on the circumstances, until you and your lawyer give police the kind of detailed information that they’re seeking. Keep your mouth shut about the incident until you talk to an attorney. This doesn’t mean, however, that you can’t honor requests for routine administrative information, or ask questions about what’s going to happen to you.



Being involved in a violent situation is going to stir your emotions. You have to be careful not to let your emotions get the best of you while you’re talking to police. It’s very important to keep in mind that no matter how friendly and considerate an officer is toward you, he’s a professional investigator and not your friend, and what you’re saying is going on the record. It's also important to not view the police as your enemy. You just have to keep in mind that you're protecting your rights and self-interest.



There’s a time and place for everything and "thinking aloud" for the police while you attempt to sort out the events of what just happened to you can put you in extreme legal jeopardy. What you say is very important. You can’t rewind and erase spoken words. The time and place to make misstatements is when you’re alone with your attorney.



If you don’t have an attorney when something like this happens, you’ll need to telephone a relative or friend and have them contact an attorney for you. They’ll probably have to contact the county chapter of the state bar association to be referred to a lawyer who specializes in criminal law.



Be careful of what you say over the telephone. Simply tell the person on the other end that you were involved in a self-defense situation and that you’re being held for investigation of assault, aggravated assault or homicide and that you need help. Don’t give out any more details, as others can overhear you.



Any criminal law attorney is better than no attorney during the police investigation. If you’re eventually charged with a crime, you can seek an attorney who specializes in use of force and self-defense cases.



Summary

The ability to communicate effectively with police is important to ensure that justice is served. Planning ahead and being prepared to give the right information at the right time can have great influence on the eventual outcome. The tips provided in this article are designed to help you communicate vital information to police in a timely, effective, efficient and judicious manner.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
wOw

THANK YOU FOR STARTING THIS THREAD!



Ive always wondered how i would handle a situations like above examples! This really helps to protect ourseleves and to communicate well with the LE, especially when they are under stress trying to handle the situation! Great thread, Again, thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
Don't talk to anyone (or any family member with you) until you talk to your lawyer and then only with your lawyer present.



The last recommendation is don't consent to any search of your person or car or house. Don't resist but don't agree to it because it sets up your lawyer to fight anything that is daming (like multiple AKs with full cap mags that mean nothing to your case).



So repeat after me... "I need to talk to my lawyer and I don't consent to any search!" 8)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,555 Posts
Im' sure there are lots of good concealed or open carry forums that cover this subject from many different angles. The one I go to here in Texas, is the Texas CHL forum www.texaschlforum.com.

Lots of good info mostly by very informed members.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
i'm with you, srigs. the less i say without my attorney present, the better. the time i fear pf saying too much is when on the phone with the 911 operator.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
pastor paul said:
i'm with you, srigs. the less i say without my attorney present, the better. the time i fear pf saying too much is when on the phone with the 911 operator.


Use 911 to your advantage! Make yourself known as the victim. Like... "I have been attacked." or another statement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Don't forget the times when you DON'T need to shoot the assailant but now you've got him with his hands up in your house! I assume most of us have read "Armed Response" (and if you haven't, shame on you! lol) so I'll just remind everyone the one thing that stood out to me...





When you call 911 to request police because you have an intruder subdued make sure you say, while on the phone with the dispatcher, "If you make any fast movements, I will assume that you are going to attack me and I will shoot you." That way you can get it recorded on the 911 machine, in case you end up shooting the assailant. That'll definitely go a long way in court.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
115 Posts
As a Side note for those of us

Who don't really "have an attorney" it's probably a good idea to do some reasearch on laywers that are knowledgeable in "weapon" related incidents and have that name handy i.e. wallet ..



I don't have a lawyer on retainer and this thread certainly points out the fact you should at least know one if your carrying a CW..



So if anyone could post a source of such persons that would be bennificial as well.



I know i'd appreciate it.



Thanks.



Mouse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Re: As a Side note for those of us

Mousekiller said:
Who don't really "have an attorney" it's probably a good idea to do some reasearch on laywers that are knowledgeable in "weapon" related incidents and have that name handy i.e. wallet ..



I don't have a lawyer on retainer and this thread certainly points out the fact you should at least know one if your carrying a CW..



So if anyone could post a source of such persons that would be bennificial as well.



I know i'd appreciate it.



Thanks.



Mouse.












If you live in or near Florida, here is someone I would reccomend:



Jon Gutmacher of JON H. GUTMACHER, P.A.

Orlando Criminal Defense Attorney & Criminal Trial Lawyer * Phone: 407-650-0770



His Site:

http://floridafirearmslaw.com/





He does alot of defense for Police officers and has expirence in defending lethal defense trials. also, if you live in Florida, he wrote a book explaining Floridas specific gun laws. Hes on my speeddial list
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,062 Posts
In southern California:



Trutanich, Michel, LLP - http://www.tmllp.com/



This firm is top notch. I had occasion to deal with them regarding a firearms issue (one of their specialties) and I was very impressed with their professionalism and diligence.



There is another attorney in this area whose name is thrown around the firearms community but he seems to be more of a hobby attorney and is more of the type to hand out cards at gun shows, etc. He is not in the same league as the Trutanich, Michel firm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Srigs said:
Don't talk to anyone (or any family member with you) until you talk to your lawyer and then only with your lawyer present.



The last recommendation is don't consent to any search of your person or car or house. Don't resist but don't agree to it because it sets up your lawyer to fight anything that is daming (like multiple AKs with full cap mags that mean nothing to your case).



So repeat after me... "I need to talk to my lawyer and I don't consent to any search!" 8)


Wow...If I would show up at this scene, you just went from the victim to a suspect and you would most likely go to jail. If you have defended yourself against an attack why in the world...would you say the above to officer(s) on scene? If you are in the right you have nothing to hide at all. If you used force against another legally you have nothing to hide, so dont.



V
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
V Hanna said:
[quote name='Srigs']Don't talk to anyone (or any family member with you) until you talk to your lawyer and then only with your lawyer present.



The last recommendation is don't consent to any search of your person or car or house. Don't resist but don't agree to it because it sets up your lawyer to fight anything that is daming (like multiple AKs with full cap mags that mean nothing to your case).



So repeat after me... "I need to talk to my lawyer and I don't consent to any search!" 8)


Wow...If I would show up at this scene, you just went from the victim to a suspect and you would most likely go to jail. If you have defended yourself against an attack why in the world...would you say the above to officer(s) on scene? If you are in the right you have nothing to hide at all. If you used force against another legally you have nothing to hide, so dont.



V[/quote]



Talking will only get you into trouble. Even cops who are involved in a shooting do not talk with out their lawyer so why should you?



Why do they do this, because it take you a while to come down from the adrenalin rush and you do not make a coherent statement that a slip up that will make you not look like a "reluctant participant" like "I shot that #$$^# 16 times and I'm glad I did!"



You have the right to not incriminate yourself so don't! A controlled response is better than off the cuff response. The police at the scene are looking to investigate an assault or murder (justified or not) and talking without a lawyer is plain stupid IMHO and many others.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
372 Posts
V Hanna said:
[quote name='Srigs']Don't talk to anyone (or any family member with you) until you talk to your lawyer and then only with your lawyer present.



The last recommendation is don't consent to any search of your person or car or house. Don't resist but don't agree to it because it sets up your lawyer to fight anything that is daming (like multiple AKs with full cap mags that mean nothing to your case).



So repeat after me... "I need to talk to my lawyer and I don't consent to any search!" 8)


Wow...If I would show up at this scene, you just went from the victim to a suspect and you would most likely go to jail. If you have defended yourself against an attack why in the world...would you say the above to officer(s) on scene? If you are in the right you have nothing to hide at all. If you used force against another legally you have nothing to hide, so dont.



V[/quote]



Because too many people have shed their blood for my rights for me to simply spit on their graves and give up those rights because "I have nothing to hide".



I don't consent to a search. Ever. I have a reasonable expectation of privacy that extends to my personal motor vehicle.



I support all of the constitution. That includes the First, Second, Fourth, and Fifth amendments.



MI_Jester
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
V[/quote]



Talking will only get you into trouble. Even cops who are involved in a shooting do not talk with out their lawyer so why should you?



Why do they do this, because it take you a while to come down from the adrenalin rush and you do not make a coherent statement that a slip up that will make you not look like a "reluctant participant" like "I shot that #$$^# 16 times and I'm glad I did!"



You have the right to not incriminate yourself so don't! A controlled response is better than off the cuff response. The police at the scene are looking to investigate an assault or murder (justified or not) and talking without a lawyer is plain stupid IMHO and many others.[/quote]



Talking will only get you in trouble?..what are you......Hello...

If you just used force on a person to DEFEND YOURSELF OR ANOTHER TALKING IS WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO GET YOUR A66 OUT OF THE RINGER. I dont care if your one of the Anit govt nuts...or you hate every LEO in sight. Truth of the matter is this: If you shoot someone and you know you are in the right to do it. A simple statement of facts surrounding the incident on scene will help you in the long run. Just like choochboost had posted above. there is nothing wrong with having an attorny on retainer. There is nothing wrong with haveing a criminal defense attorney at all. However if a LEO shows up to a scene where you are standing over a dead guy with your gun back in you holster and the dead guys gun on the ground and you make a smart a66 statement saying "i dont talk at all w/out my attorney present, or " no i will not consent to any searches"...yada yada yada. You have just been turned from the victim to the aggressor and now with luck your High priced attorney will reap the benifits. It all could have been alot easier...

V
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
V[/quote]



Because too many people have shed their blood for my rights for me to simply spit on their graves and give up those rights because "I have nothing to hide".



I don't consent to a search. Ever. I have a reasonable expectation of privacy that extends to my personal motor vehicle.



I support all of the constitution. That includes the First, Second, Fourth, and Fifth amendments.



MI_Jester[/quote]





Sounds like a typical anti govt rant to me.....

Better do some research on that expectation thingy of your auto....because it is not included.

Look up the Carroll Docterine. If you are infact from MI...The Carrol Docterine originated from there. So you should have no problem doing the research on it. Make sure you know it. If you tell and officer you have a REP in your auto he's going to laugh at you. Education is the key



I also fully support the 1st 2nd 4th and 5th...but if you act like a a66 hat when you did nothing wrong and want to "test" the system with your knowledge. The ony bill of rights you will be worried about is the 8th at that point!!!!!



V
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
372 Posts
First, I am NOT anti government nor am I anti police. I support our law enforcement. They have a tough job, put their lives on the line and get paid worse than garbagemen. My best friend is a County Deputy and two of my friends are Detroit Police. However; I believe in supporting individual privacy and freedoms. Now, on to the S&S laws as you said them...



Chambers v. Moroney would be the more appropriate item here. That means the vehicle can be searched after you are taken in to custody in order to inventory contents and all items used against you in a court of law. Or they would search it under the Crime Scene Search exception.



I was instead referring to an expectation of privacy that requires "just cause" to search my vehicle.



Carroll vs. US (Carroll v. U. S., 267 U. S. 132, 45 S.Ct. 280, 69 L.Ed. 543 [1925]) allows for road block searches. A standard stop still requires "just cause", open view, plain view, consent, or matter of arrest and inventory.



Giving an interview or "spontaneous utterance" is discouraged by the police in a police shooting. After a lethal force encounter, the Detroit PD (and others) are taught to give a basic statement to the Sargent, not discuss anything with anyone else, and to have the department lawyer present during the discussion of the facts later. Why should I be any difference? There was a big row about a shooting of someone at the bottom of a stairwell who had a knife by the Detroit PD. On a recording, you can hear everything. What created a problem was at the end, the team leader said "say nothing to nobody" as a reminder of the procedures after a shooting.



So, I am still unsure why I should be different. I have never been rude or acted in a way that would cause police to think differently. I discuss things calmly and rationally. I will act with my lawyers advice.



MI_Jester
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
The police are not your friends (nor your enemies), they are glorified information gathering devices. They will do their best to gather as much information as they can. Fact: You will remember the incident differently from what actually happened. The color of the car, how many shots were fired, etc. Witnesses will inform the police of what they saw...all of them will be different from yours and each others. If you shot someone, you will be arrested...period. Not to say you're guilty, but you will be arrested. Like the rest of the folks here who have had any kind of good tactical training (your CCW or CHL is absolutley not training and you should look into a good CHL or CCW class held by the likes of John Farnum, Thunder Ranch, gunsite, etc.) Don't talk to the police...PERIOD. Be polite but don't concent to anything, don't tell any details, and when they ask you if you understand your rights, you say "no". When they as you what part you don't understand, you say "all of it".
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top