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Discussion Starter #1
Interesting article I saw posted on AR15.com



http://www.nationalexpositor.com/print/466.html



Jason Sigger on 06 October, 2007 11:38:00 | 155 times read



Iraq Hearts China's Guns



Wired - It's so good to have strong allies in the Middle East. Nothing says "you're special" than our good friends in Baghdad thumbing their noses at made-in-America Colt M16A3 rifles and going with Chinese AK-47 knockoffs. I mean, what's the deal when you can't count on a newly conquered nation to buy from your military-industrial complex?



The capabilities of Iraqi security forces are pivotal to the U.S. exit strategy in Iraq, with the creation of a viable police force critical to reconciliation. Talabani said only one in five Iraqi police officers is armed and called for faster weapons delivery from the United States to beef up Iraq's fledgling army.



Iraq's police force is noted for infiltration by militias and insurgents out to use national resources for their own ends, said William D. Hartung, director of the New America Foundation Arms and Security Initiative. "Besides, aside from possibly wanting newer models, there are piles of arms and weapons floating around in Iraq," he said.

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Iraq has become one of the largest buyers of U.S.-made weapons. Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, told the Senate Armed Services Committee last month that Baghdad has signed deals to buy $1.6 billion in U.S. arms, with another $1.8 billion in possible weapons purchases.



Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said the United States is "working closely" to help Iraq obtain "appropriate and necessary" military equipment. But U.S. officials concede delivery problems.



"We haven't converted toaster factories to produce carbines and we're working hard just to supply our own troops," said an administration official involved with Iraq policy. "Our factories are working for our own troops. So it's true we don't have the ability to provide these rifles and other equipment they're looking for."



In 2004 and 2005, the United States bought 185,000 AK-47s from an Eastern European country -- after Iraqis rejected U.S.-made M-16 assault rifles -- as part of a $2.8 billion program to deliver military equipment to Iraq. But a recent Government Accountability Office report said that 110,000 of them were unaccounted for, with about 30 percent of all arms distributed to Iraqi forces by the United States since 2004 missing.



Explained the Iraqi government official, "The Chinese offer is just a sampler of light arms that we couldn't pass up. We paid $100 million for what would have cost us $850 million, if we bought it from a U.S. contractor. And to sweeten the deal, the Chinese threw in this ship-load of Thomas the Train toys and Barbie doll accessories free."



Okay, maybe the last paragraph isn't exactly true. But is there any doubt that China's in this game to win as a peer-competitor to the U.S. global military-industrial engine? First Africa, then the Middle East, then the rest of Asia. Game on, folks.
 

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Sad, but the article isn't surprising at all... go figure... China trying to express international viability? They're already building better ships then we are... using our OWN floor plans and designs.
 

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I think capitalism is working just fine in Iraq. They're already shafting their friends for better prices. actually, it's rather clever of them. Why pay 800K to get AR-15's and M-16's when you can get as many AK's, which you're troops know and love, for an eighth of that?
 

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FieroCDSP said:
I think capitalism is working just fine in Iraq. They're already shafting their friends for better prices. actually, it's rather clever of them. Why pay 800K to get AR-15's and M-16's when you can get as many AK's, which you're troops know and love, for an eighth of that?


While in Iraq I asked one of the locals the cost for a SLIGHTLY used fully auto AK-47 with one 30 round mag.... I want you guys to guess....
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I saw some Chinese navy ships at Pearl Harbor when I was stationed there in the late 80's. They were lousy ships back then without even watertight doors.



Grimwulff said:
Sad, but the article isn't surprising at all... go figure... China trying to express international viability? They're already building better ships then we are... using our OWN floor plans and designs.
 

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I don't know.



You see pictures on the news all the time of the Iranian military exercises and they're running around with M-16s.

I don't like seeing that. Do you?



Once the terrorists are defeated in Iraq and we leave, if we have to go back there and Iraq is an enemy again, would you rather they had AK-47s or M-16s?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Iran uses a lot more than M-16's They also have HK G-3's, AK's and their own locally produced bullpup style rifle. The M-16's and G3's are left over from the days of the Shah and are not in the best of shape. They have also recently imported 800 Steyr-Mannlicher .50 cal sniper rifles to go along with their SVD like sniper rifles.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
They were able to keep the F-14's, Phantoms, and Cobra's flying a lot longer because of Iran-Contra. All the aircraft that Iraq flew to Iran they keep and are now in their air force. That's 36 Su-24MKs, 7 SU-25s and 24 Mirage F.1BQs and F.1EQs. They also have 70 Mig-29's and still have around 50 Phantom II's and 50 or so F-14's flying. Can't be easy keeping all those maintained.
 

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I'd much rather they have AK's than an M16. Not that most of them can shoot very well from what I've been told they just like to spray and pray.
 

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Fire1 said:
I'd much rather they have AK's than an M16. Not that most of them can shoot very well from what I've been told they just like to spray and pray.


the Iraqis shoot from the hip... One of the more common problems with our guys training the Iraqi Police and the Iraqi Army was teaching them how to aim and shoot their ak's correct.
 

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Steelshooter said:
I saw some Chinese navy ships at Pearl Harbor when I was stationed there in the late 80's. They were lousy ships back then without even watertight doors.



[quote name='Grimwulff']Sad, but the article isn't surprising at all... go figure... China trying to express international viability? They're already building better ships then we are... using our OWN floor plans and designs.
[/quote]



I don't think a 20 year old experience stands up to today... http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/57462.pdf



Anyways... it is better to deal with a communist nation... endless supply of cheap labor and the ability to work them out of their mind for an ideal. Saddly, that is what they have driving them... whole nations and socities driven by the philosophy of destroying the great evil. What do we have? The all mighty dollar, trying to live and be happy, oh, and freedom is in there somewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yes I know. Thats why I said back then. I was a Gunnery Sergeant in the Marine Corps at Pearl Harbor working in the Fleet Intelligence Center Pacific (FICPAC) when Tianamen square happened and I briefed Navy Captain Mike McConnell on the events in Tianamen square as they occurred. That same Mike McConnell is now the Director of National Intelligence. I worked for him for four years at Pearl Harbor. So I have a long history of studying the government and military of China and other countries.



China is a vastly different country from 20 years ago. I spend a lot of time there these days as well as Hong Kong, Singapore, and India.



Thee is nothing communist about China these days except the name. It's a for profit dictatorship. They can't keep it up indefinitely though.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
In Beirut the favored technique was to stand behind something and spray over it.




101Combat Vet said:
[quote name='Fire1']I'd much rather they have AK's than an M16. Not that most of them can shoot very well from what I've been told they just like to spray and pray.


the Iraqis shoot from the hip... One of the more common problems with our guys training the Iraqi Police and the Iraqi Army was teaching them how to aim and shoot their ak's correct.[/quote]
 

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Steelshooter said:
China is a vastly different country from 20 years ago. I spend a lot of time there these days as well as Hong Kong, Singapore, and India.



Thee is nothing communist about China these days except the name. It's a for profit dictatorship. They can't keep it up indefinitely though.


Last I heard, the Chinese government has adopted money, and has been using it for some time now. McDonald's is big over there... with the drive-thru being a sign of upper class citizenry. WAIT! I get it... we're going to make them all fat on our s***y food and give them heartattacks! Thats the ticket...



I think the American people need to wake up out of their coma, figure out what is really driving the world, and adopt a similar goal and driving force. We're so bogged down in our own problems, we no longer have a true national identity.



Personally, i'm not worried about the Iraqis buying old Chinese surplus... if anything can be said about the quality of weapons made in the east, is that it has none.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Not sure what your point is about money as they have always had it. I don't particularly care for the place. All of the big cities have horrible pollution and you have to be very careful about where you eat to avoid getting sick. Hong Kong is not what it used to be either.



I think it is interesting that they are getting these AK's from China and it has all sorts of potential ramifications. The Chinese are just as concerned about future oil sources as we are for one thing and I'm sure they would like to have some sort of influence in the region. They are practically giving these rifles away and they are not doing it out of the kindness of their heart. To make matters even more interesting I bet we are the ones paying for them.



As for M-16's they require a lot of care and feeding and the I don't see the Iraqi Army or Police providing that.
 

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Steelshooter said:
...I bet we are the ones paying for them...
If not directly, then indirectly by importing their products and continuing to allow them to ignor our copyrights. But, if it weren't for that, we'd be sending them billions in humanitary aid, like we do North Korea, Palestinians, UN, etc.



Steelshooter said:
As for M-16's they require a lot of care and feeding and the I don't see the Iraqi Army or Police providing that.
they don't even seem to be motivated to protect their own people.

And, since we're paying to train and arm them, it's cheaper to replace when some bomber blows up the police station...
 

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And to sweeten the deal, the Chinese threw in this ship-load of Thomas the Train toys and Barbie doll accessories free."


weren't the Thomas the train toys the toys that had excessive amounts of lead? No wonder it was a freebee. . . .
 
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