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Well, good news is FL has their Castle Doctrine and it applies not only to your house but any place you have a right to be.



Not everyone is an old man and has to be in bed at 10p.m. That neighborhood is not even bad. If he was just south at Hillsborough and Hanley I'd think jogging was a bad idea @ 1 a.m.
 

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I think you need not judge the guy for jogging at night. Several people jog at night for many reasons including but not limited to weather considerations, less congestion on sidewalks, perhaps he's ugly and would not like to be seen in public...etc. Another consideration is that there doesn't need to be a weapon for a person to be in fear of their own life. A disparity in numbers is all that is required. If a group of ten guys was against you saying they were going to kill you and had no weapons I'm sure they would be successful. That is probably why the jogger did not shoot the second guy because there was no longer a disparity of numbers. Ie. 1 vs. 1 instead of 2 vs. 1.
 

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I know its his right to jog whenever he wants to, and i get the temperature thing. I used to live in Jacksonville. I am just a big fan of common sense. This story seems to lack some facts. If they had said he was on a neighborhood watch partol or was bringing in groceries after going to the 24 hr. walmart I wouldnt have said anything...... Get a treadmill and run in front of your bigscreen TV while watching CNN if you want to jog at 1:30 AM. I have heard of people intentionally going to gas stations and mini-marts at 2:00 AM just to see if they can find someone to exercise their 2a rights on. I agree 100% with being prepared for self defense I just dont agree with putting yourself in a situation that you are more likely to have to defend yourself just for the excitement of it. OK, I'm off the topic since I dont know all the facts.


If this guy was a off duty Police Officer would you tell him to stay in his house and buy a treadmill because it's too dangerous at 1am to be running? My guess is you would not give it a second thought, but because you have the sheep mentality you assume everyone else should think as you do. Well you are WRONG!

Some of us work while others on banker hours sleep. This means our internal clock is setup differently and it forces us to be out and about at 1am or even 4am.

He did nothing wrong by running at 1am. My concern is the confrontation itself and what caused him to escalate to deadly force. Did the teen imply a firearm or weapon of some kind? What was said?

Family and friends of the teen all say this was a model kid and wouldn't hurt a soul, but why were these two out at 1am hanging out on the street? There are a lot of questions to be answered yet and once the facts come out and it is found that it was a bad shoot then the guy should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.



I feel bad for the family of the teen and I feel bad for the shooter.
 

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You guys are saying that it is against common sense to jog at 1am and that people should buy a treadmill instead?

Are your guys' neighborhoods that bad?


I can't imagine what kinda shithole they must live in. The story is missing some facts if you ask me. I applaud him taking out another worthless banger even though mama says he was a good boy.



Depending on who looks at the case they guy could be in some trouble though as a case could be made either way.
 

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Something is missing.



IF the Shooter/Jogger put EYEBALLS on a hoodie weapon and felt in fear of his life and killed hoodie for it fine.



But if Jogger THOUGHT there MIGHT be a weapon OR NOT... then it becomes murder. The only other problem I can see with two hoodies trying to rob a jogger is possibly the ability of two young strong people to overpower a jogger who already is exerted a little energy. There is a term called "Balance of force" I think.



Time of day does not matter much. Having said that, I would not go downtown after 5 pm anyway.



What mommy and daddy have to say about anyone is irrelevant. The situation for that moment happened and we dont yet have all the facts. It will probably come out eventually.



If someone or several someones walked up to me and wife and says "Gimmie your money" my response will be you and what army while seeking retreat. We cannot stand our ground in Arkansas. (That is being worked on) If I see a weapon or a group intent to assault, I am drawing. (Intent, ability and means) Two or three or more of 18 year olds can overpower me and wife easily. One would be difficult and I will be sore for weeks. While Sensei says don't use old muscles if you did not practice.



The one thing that we dont do is carry cash most of the time. Or even credit cards. Depending on our activity for the day.





One more thing. I am very angry at the possibility that SOME of CHL Holders even suggested going out into bad areas TRYING to see if they can "Legally" engage bad guys by setting up a situation... that is flat nuts, I reject it totally and feel that these nuts should be stripped of their CHL's and sent to prision. That gives the rest of us Law Abiding CHL holders a bad rap and adds fuel to the anti gunner.



It's interesting that a debate has cropped up about time of night for jogging or whatever. I have been downtown late at night in social activies (Ahem...) as late as 3 am at times going home at sunrise on my free time. Fortunately we have not been in any immediate danger because the police presence on every corner in those days.



I will be for to follow this story as it develops. My thinking is that Shooter/Jogger has better be correct about a Hoodie having a weapon. His life/freedom depends on it.



Oh one more thing.



It is common for other parties involved in a crime who escape to circle back towards the scene after the police arrive to do a sort of "Battle Damage Assessment" or Information gathering to see what happened. Possibly a gang or other party may find this information useful. They have to be careful doing it though. If they are spotted, the Police will grab them just like that.
 

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Further details suggest the jogger was physically attacked. It was reported that the one that was shot actually punched the jogger in the face. Now was that enough to feel in fear of his life? Only he can say that, but I do know that even Law Enforcement Officers consider being knocked out a deadly threat simply because you carry a firearm and it can be used against you.



If these guys managed to knock this guy out and then find his gun while he is unconscious and decide to kill him with it I think that's pretty clear it's a deadly threat. Not saying that's what happened, but you have to ask yourself- Would you use deadly force if being beaten? At what point are you afraid you are going to die?



Anxious to hear the rest of this story.
 

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If you are man to man with me and punched me where I see stars and feel faint and have a gun on me, I will draw. Because the number one rule is never to allow OTHER people to use your own firearm against you or anyone else. I have a heart condition and must remain functional.



If a 7 foot monster punched me (Because I was too stupid to stay out of arms reach) it wont matter anyway.
 

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Jogging with a .45 now that's bad-ass. After 5-10 miles that pistol would get heavy, no wonder he didn't just run away. Someone needs to inform the shooter about the benefits on taking an Airweight J-frame for a run.
 

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Everybody is wondering how you jog with a 45? Maybe it was a Kahr PM45, they are 17oz.



If I'm out at 1am and two guys come up to me and one punches me.....I wouldn't think twice about about pulling my weapon and using it. He isn't thowing punches for any reason other than to hurt or kill me. Once your hit or hurt against two guys you are in big trouble.
 

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Thats the only thing I dont agree with, is him running at 1am, like you said, get a treadmill( i know they are not the same as real jogging, but.....IE the obvious) its stupid that people do things like look for trouble to use their 2a rights on....gives a bad rap.


If someone wants to go jogging st 1:30am, they should be able to without fear of being robbed. I think its pretty clear this guy was just going for a jog and not looking for trouble. Thank God he had his gun on him. Who knows what would have happened? He could've been the one being shot.
 

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There were also 2 hoods and 1 Jogger. I would think that would be a perfectly justified reason to use force. And If the Hood took a swing at the Jogger than clearly he has the right to carry out the only right thing to do and clean our streets up a little.



something similar happened here a few years back.



Newspaper carrier im my neighbor shot 1 of 2 kids trying to rob him... I cant find the full story anywhere. They did have it in the paper when it first happened with more details. And the carrier got out of his van to put some papers out and two kids ran up on him and ordered him to give them his money and then pulled a weapon on the carrier. The carrier who had been robbed before started carrying, reached in his van like he was reaching for money in the glove box but came back out with a gun. Pointed it at the kids chest and told the kids they better get on their way. The kid laughed at him and tried to grab the gun and that was the point when he fired twice in the kids chest. Story Below













By MATTHEW ROY

The Virginian-Pilot



NORFOLK - A Virginian-Pilot carrier who was delivering newspapers early Thursday shot and wounded one of two youths who tried to rob him, police said.



Police planned to charge the youths, who were in custody, with attempted robbery and related crimes. Their ages and identities were not released. The injured youth was hospitalized under guard Thursday, according to Cpl. Ollan Burruss, a police spokesman. His wounds were not considered life-threatening.



Police said the shooting happened about 2:52 a.m. in the vicinity of the 3500 block of Chesapeake Blvd . The carrier, who is an independent contractor and not an employee of the newspaper, had just started his route when he encountered the two.



The carrier i s not facing charges, Burruss said.



"They were trying to rob him, and he defended himself," he said.
 

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Source Link



Town 'N Country confrontation with jogger ends with fatal shooting



By Ileana Morales, Times Staff Writer

In Print: Thursday, November 25, 2010



TAMPA — Thomas Baker was on his usual late-night jog about 1 a.m. Wednesday when two teenagers in dark hooded sweat shirts approached him. A brief conversation quickly turned into a confrontation, authorities said.



One teen punched Baker, who thought he was about to become the victim of an armed robbery, Hillsborough County sheriff's deputies said.



So Baker, 28, pulled out a .45-caliber semiautomatic handgun and fatally shot 18-year-old Carlos Musteliel multiple times in the chest. He called 911 and remained on the scene until deputies arrived.



Deputies found Musteliel's body at 1:24 a.m. in a quiet, working-class corner of suburban Town 'N Country.



Musteliel's unidentified 16-year-old companion was unharmed. He ran and hid his sweat shirt in a nearby back yard, he told deputies. He returned later and was questioned by deputies.



Authorities did not find a weapon on either teen.



Neither Baker nor Musteliel has a criminal record. The 16-year-old's record is also clean, said sheriff's spokesman Larry McKinnon.



Baker, who has a concealed weapons permit, stood outside his home at 9015 Hickory Circle on Wednesday morning smoking a cigarette, five houses from the shooting scene at Pinehurst and Hickory Circle. "I don't want to talk," he told a reporter. "It was a terrible thing."



Baker and the teenagers live in the neighborhood but don't know each other, sheriff's detectives said.



No charges were filed, and the shooting will likely be another case involving Florida's "stand your ground" law.



Sheriff's detectives were conferring with prosecutors, who will determine if charges will be filed. Mark Cox, a spokesman for Hillsborough State Attorney Mark Ober, declined to comment.



Florida law formerly gave people the right to protect themselves from deadly force inside their homes, but in 2005 the Legislature extended the law to just about anywhere you "reasonably believe" using a weapon will stop someone from harming you.



The law has been used in at least 93 cases involving 65 deaths, a recent St. Petersburg Times review found.



On Wednesday, Baker's neighbor awoke to the sound of gunshots. William McVey, 63, said he heard five shots. "Somebody getting killed like that is awful," he said. "What an awful way to start the Thanksgiving weekend."



He said the neighborhood is pretty quiet with a lot of children.



Two miles from where Musteliel died, family and friends packed the living room of Musteliel's parents' home on Camino Villa Boulevard a few hours after the shooting.



His mother, Elena Lopez, 34, sat on a couch surrounded by loved ones. One hand covered her mouth as her arms hugged her body.



"He was a kid, like anyone else," she said in Spanish. "He was a little spoiled with me, but he was normal."



On the wall, Musteliel posed and smiled in a picture next to his brothers, Jordan Sarlabous, 21, and Michael, 11. Outside the home, Musteliel's father, Nicholas Sarlabous, 42, sat on the porch with bloodshot eyes.



Musteliel recently graduated from high school and planned to start studying physical therapy at Erwin Technical Center in Tampa.



"He was a jokester," said friend Jennifer Martinez, 17. "He was a good kid."



She said about 10 of Musteliel's friends showed up at the scene, including her brother John Martinez. He's been Carlos' best friend and basketball buddy for six years.



When John got the call, he rushed to the scene, dropped to his knees and tried to revive Carlos before paramedics took him away.



"My brother just fell on his knees and I knew it was him," Martinez said.



Friends and relatives didn't believe he was doing anything wrong.



"What they're putting in the news about a robbery, I don't believe it," said his uncle, Gustavo Gonzalez, 41. "He's always been provided for."



Said Martinez, "He never tried to start problems. … He never started a fight with anybody."



Times staff writer Danny Valentine contributed to this report. Ileana Morales can be reached at (813) 226-3386 or [email protected].



[Last modified: Nov 24, 2010 10:28 PM]
 

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"Authorities did not find a weapon on either teen."



"Neither Baker nor Musteliel has a criminal record. The 16-year-old's record is also clean, said sheriff's spokesman Larry McKinnon."



Something still doesn't smell right to me about this. Unlike others, I'll wait until the facts are all in.

I don't know about Florida, but in Texas all deadly force cases must go before the Grand Jury.
 

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If you are seeing stars, the "party is already over" and they already have the upper hand.


Exactly right.



Occasionally a Elderly Marine would fight as one did in Atlanta late at night and prevail. There are people who the bad guys think they are easy targets but are not. Every situation is different.



I can always learn new things with these discussions.
 

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[quote name='HungrySeagull' date='Nov 26 2010, 05:41 PM' post='279012']

Exactly right.



Occasionally a Elderly Marine would fight as one did in Atlanta late at night and prevail. There are people who the bad guys think they are easy targets but are not. Every situation is different.



I can always learn new things with these discussions.

[/quote



With the way todays times are ever changing, one must always have situational awareness no matter when or where they are. And be ready to react to what-ever/when-ever and NOT be paranoid about it.
 
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