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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,



I made the "mistake" of mentioning Krav Maga on another thread and they showed some interest in it so I thought I'd make a new thread to expound on it a bit.



www.kravmaga.com



Krav Maga is Hebrew for "Contact Combat" and was developed by Imi Lichtenfeld in the 1940's & 50's as an effective yet easy to learn form of hand to hand combat. Imi was trained in judo and boxing as well as some other things but felt that most styles were not able to handle the realities of the battlefield. He developed a system that relied on the bodies natural reflexes to defend oneself from surprise attacks. He also based it on real life threats right away. The IDF boot camp is only 9 weeks long (or was it 6? I can't recall) and Israel needed I technique that would enable troops to be fully competent within that time frame. Krav was the answer.



As far as training goes, from the onset it's very practical. There are no Katas, no meditation, no spending time on ancient techniques. Just brutally effective stuff based on real world conditions. The US rep for Krav Maga is an ADA in LA. He studies crime scene footage (ATM cameras, parking lot cameras) and watches how street attacks really go down and has adapted our techniques to match reality.



As far as specifics I can only speak for my school but I believe all of the ones affiliated with Krav Maga Worldwide are standardized. There a 6 levels (belts if you will). The level one curriculum typically last 6 months depending on your commitment, I went 2 times a week and it was just about right. Level 1 teaches you the basics. How to punch with power. How to use your elbows and knees. Defending against punches. One of the things I like the best is that it teaches ground fighting right away. The ground techniques are loosely based on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu but unlike BJJ its Krav's intent to get up and away, not live on the ground. (You don't know that the guy you just got in an armbar doesn't have five friends with baseball bats around the corner).



Level 2 (which is where I'm at) includes knife defenses, gun defenses, club defenses, fighting from the ground (notice not "on" but "from", also in comparison to defending on the ground in Level 1). It also includes more kicks and defenses against kicks, etc.



Levels 1-4 are considered to be the "self defense" levels while 5 & 6 (6 being black belt) are considered to be the "fighting" levels, typically for military and police. As for credibility of the style, just ask the FBI, LAPD SWAT, and multiple other agencies across the globe. Personally I train with several SWAT officers from my local county sheriff.



If you haven't figured out yet, I believe in this system. What other style (except perhaps MMA) will put you all in a room, turn off all the lights, crank up heavy metal (hearing and vision sensory deprivation) and tell you to defend yourself against multiple attackers? Oh, did I mention that was within the first 4 months?




Just some history and my .02 cents.



MC
 

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Nice! Thanks for sharing. I will be checking this out more for sure.
 

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walkingbush,

Thanks for the info. I have been looking at taking some self-defense classes myself. Of course, everyone I talk to says their system is THE BEST...very unhelpful. I do like the long list of professionals that use Krav Maga. I have also looked at BJJ, but that looks like it takes a lot of time, even though there are is a spectacular school here in Seattle. I have a friend of mine that does MMA, and of course he thinks that is the best...oh well. I think I will check out the Krav Maga school in my area.
 

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Thanx for the post and new thread. Great info. I have several LE friends that can attest to the effectiveness of this technique. Sadly the opportunities to study in my area are limited. Gonna have to figure out a way to travel for it.



Again, thanx.
 

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Wow! I have been looking for a school that teaches Krav Maga..... hard! I can't seem to find anything locally (around Springfield/Joplin Missouri area). Any help in would be appreciated greatly!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
One thing that I like about Krav is that it doesn't claim to be the best. If you research the Krav emblem you'll see that it is a broken circle. That means that it attempts to be complete in scope without excluding any outside input. One of Krav's founding principles is that if there is a better way then use it. It's a rather humble style from what I've seen.



MC
 

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Haganah, is a "more modern" form that draws heavily upon Krav.



www.fight2survive.com



good stuff, great training materials, easy to learn, and effective.

the weapons disarms are top notch.



i'd highly recommend the training materials to people who are interested in learning this stuff, but can't attend local formal training for whatever reason.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
While I disagree with the "more modern" bit, Haganah looks to be a viable solution as well. From reading the description it sounds like Krav under a different name. Even the core principles come right out of the Krav "handbook." Krav is the current system in use by the IDF and Israeli SF units so I wouldn't consider it to be outdated.



With any form of H2H I would highly recommend getting training in use of force justification. Most of these styles are seriously lacking in that department, Krav included. Just because you can kick butt doesn't mean you should in all situations and knowing what you can and can't do legally is really important to your continued freedom.



MC
 

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choochboost said:
You might as well check out Kapap which is the umbrella fighting system for the Israelis that Krav is a part of. I took a Kapap advanced tactical handgun class - crazy stuff.



http://www.kapap.net/

http://www.kapapacademy.com

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapap

Full explanation of Kapap here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=6xayFFGF5bE


Haganah combines Kapap, LOTAR, and Krav.



Also, the Krav here in the states, is not what is being taught over in Israel. The Krav over here is largly a marketing thing....eg...www.kravmaga.com A lot of the stuff from this system has been around for a while, and instructors are not required to report back for upgrades and more training. How the individual instructor handles their class is up to them...you just have to know how the instructor handles their class.



Haganah is a continually updated system...with instructors attending clinics a few times a year to recieve upgrades. As techniques do or do not work in the field, the system is updated to reflect this.



There have been several upgrades to the system since the DVD's were filmed...you'll need to attend classes to get these.



For these reasons, I would argue that Haganah IS more modern.



Both are very similiar systems, with Haganah having great training aids. The weapons disarms seem much better to me in Haganah, than in Krav.



That said, I know a SWAT guy that teaches Krav, and I'm sure he is incorporating updated techniques in his classes. I also know a guy that teaches FIGHT, or Haganah. He has made a ton of trips to recieve more upgrades and training...he also trains hard at shooting, and it shows.



I wouldn't hessitate to train with either of them...but I like the training materials and the updates that the Haganah offers.



It's always great to crosstrain, too.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I'll concede that it all depends on the instructor. In the 10 months that I've been working with Krav the instructor has updated material at least three times. He also cross trains with the ground fighting stuff and does continual education. One of the instructors is a county sheriff SWAT officer and incorporates field experience into the equation as well.



I'm curious to know what the difference is between the Krav here and in Israel is. Deren Levine, the head of Krav in the US, trained under Imi Lichtenfeld, the founder of Krav Maga, and to my knowledge is the highest ranking Krav Maga practitioner in the US.



All in all, if the Israelies are using it (kapap, krav, haganah) then I'm sure it's good stuff. While it sounds like I'm sticking up for Krav (which admitedly I am) I'm in no way dissing on the others. They are probably great. One issue is availability. While I didn't look too closely I didn't see any haganah places in Oregon.



MC
 

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walkingbush said:
I'm curious to know what the difference is between the Krav here and in Israel is. Deren Levine, the head of Krav in the US, trained under Imi Lichtenfeld, the founder of Krav Maga, and to my knowledge is the highest ranking Krav Maga practitioner in the US.

MC


MC, what I was elluding to, is that the training and apprenticeship you refer to, occured in the 80's.



The whole Krav Mage Inc, the US program, isn't recieving updates and feedback from current IDF opperators. (as far as I know)



MLK, the founder of Haganah, started the system much more recently, and is still in contact with his former peers.



But just like you said, it really depends on the instructor.



Whether they're getting upgrades from the IDF, from the Air Martials, from SAS, it doesn't matter. It's just good to know that whom ever you're learning from is seeking out different ways of doing things, giving you more options to find what works best for you.



I only present Haganah as an option for those who can check it out, and as something with excelent training materials for those who can't find classes in their area.



The stuff in Haganah seems to work well for my body type, but I may end up training in Krav just because the local studio has a program that fits with my schedule much better.



Anything is better than nothing, and the midset you'll develop from training in either program is the most important component you can ever learn in self defense.
 

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There's no stupid centers within 2 hours drive time from here.




hmmm, no what do I do? I'm not moving but this really seems like the discipline for me. I guess I'll start calling MA centers around to see if anyone around teaches anything similar.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Synergy,



In all fairness to all disciplines it really does boil down to the instructor. I don't think that there is any "best" style out there. As soon as someone thinks their techniques are best then they commit the crime of excluding other techniques and the opportunity to learn lessons from others.



I've been fortunate to work with instructors who have a broad background and one of whom is a local SWAT officer and uses his experience to help teach mindset.



We're each as good as the sum of our experiences. I don't believe Krav is the end all but it is a nice supplement to the firearm training I've done. Unfortunately there just aren't many styles out there that are really combat oriented and even fewer in my area. As it is I drive nearly an hour to get to my Krav classes...




Whatever technique anyone chooses to learn I think you said it best, mindset is key to it all. As my firearms instructor has said many times, "You're not out of the fight until your head is separated from your torso by ten feet and you're looking back down your windpipe."



MC
 

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So far it look like its going to be $175 a month, but I think it will be well worth the money!
 

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KRAV MAGA

I highly recommend this useful "skill". I was fortunate enough to be trained in this Israeli "martial art" as a much younger man. It was taught to me by an instructor whose credentials included being an Israeli colonel and former body guard to Menachem Begin, former prime minister. I stand five feet seven inches, and 160 lbs. I can assure anyone considering taking this "class," if you will ,that it will teach you techniques and tactics that will allow you to hold your own against an adversary much larger than yourself. One of the most useful lessons in this discipline, is knowing when to apply it. And when not to. Your brain is your best weapon, not your ballz. Good luck to those of you willing to pursue it. It is rigorous and rewarding. As for the difference between Krav here and in Israel, i propose you this question, would you teach a "potential enemy" everything you know? Unless you have lived there, and walked a mile in their shoes, it will be difficult for most to understand their national mindset.
 
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