[TAZ]

I am seeing a lot of guns coming from the factory with lasers already on them, namely Kimber and SW 1911's with CT laser grips. Also seeing alot of push for lasers on shows like G&A TV, Personal defense TV... Yes, I know the laser makers are advertisers and sponsors of these shows. None the less it started me thinking about them, but I must admit that I am a complete newb when it comes to lasers. I understand the general principles behind the, just not the practicalities in deploying one.



For those that use one, how do you use it? Do you CCW with it, use it for training only... How much of a stance /grip change do you have to relearn so your existing sights dont obscure the laser..



Sounds silly, I know, but what are your thoughts?

 

[Morphire]

Every time I try one I lose the front sight and start watching the target instead. I shoot like crap with them! LOL



For defense situations I can't get around the obvious issue with showcasing where you are every time you aim the pistol too.

 

[ShipWreck]

I think they have a place. Just 1 more tool on the gun, like night sights. U will get nay sayers who will give U all sorts of reasons not to have them. And, U will get some pro responses too.



As long as U don't rely on them all the time, they have their place.



I has 1 in the 1990s. Now, the only one I have is on my PS90 carbine.

 

[NCPatrolAR]

I carry one on my Glock 19, which sees duty as a CCW pistol from time to time. The advanatages to the laser far outnumber the listed negatives. People, too often, forget that the laser is an auxilary aiming device in most situations. If you want to see their true effectiveness, do some shooting from unconventional positions and do some low-light work.

 

[Arizona Smithshooter]

I have one on my S&W 642 revolver and I will buy one for my M&P as soon as they become available. Lasers create a lot of discussion, but I have become a firm believer in their concept and use.

 

[ClosetCaseNerd]

Here is my issue with CTC lasers:



I love that they are momentary, as in, you grip the pistol and they tun on, grip slightly less and they don't. I like that they are contained within the pistol (its backstrap in the M&P's case).



But there are just several issues I can't get past. I find the momentary switch too small on most models, I think it needs to be a big ol' pressure pad. I've fired the 92FS model, and I've fooled with the revolver model and the sig 228 model.



The sigs have enough room on the frame for your finger to be above the trigger well running parallel to the barrel and NOT block the laser. The 92fs model, revolver models, and from what I can see from pictures with the M&P, does not. Subsequently my finger blocks the laser diode when my finger is off the trigger. So it basically makes it useless.



Anyone else experience this?

 

[Bowie Tactical]

The laser is A great tool remember it is only one tool on the gun not the only tool on the gun. The CTC grip is the only way to go. The others that you have to turn on tend to not get used in fast happening fights. No time to think to turn it on or to hit a relatively small switch.

Like above, some complain that thier trigger finger blocks the beam when not on the trigger. That is a GOOD thing. You don't need the beam until you need to shoot. This keeps the beam from giving you up in a building search situation. A slight trigger finger move that falls in between can be used if needed. I have done this and had people give up because some had been tazed and thought that was the dot that was pointed at them. Others just felt I was seriouse. But being able to quickly block the beam at the first is a great thing. Then you can adjust from there.

One other problem that is laser related is in the form of shooters with only moderate training. They see the laser moving on the target and this freaks them out and they jerk the trigger when the dot stops for a second. This is a training issue not a fault of the laser. You must be able to shoot through wobble. That is reality. Guns come out and people move, to think the gun is going to be still in a gun fight is naive at best.

Remember train to shoot your sights and shoot what dominates your view. The laser does not require alot of work. Think sights and if the laser takes over and it will if needed shoot the bright red dot. WAY COOL.

CHECK 360

David Bowie

 

[crossgun]

I think lasers on a fighting gun are a must period !



FBI stats show that most shootings occur in "low light" and approx. in the 7 yard range, that being the case your front sight picture will be compromised. Many of those who have been involved in shootings have stated they never saw their front site. Like Ken Hackathorn has stated, "if you see your site in a gun fight, good for you". Hell, the guy whom invented the night site even said that when he was involved in a shooting after developing the night site he never saw them. There just isn't time and to much is going on. Guys are always talking about gross and fine motor skills in shootings and I think finding your site in a gun fight just may be a fine motor skill. Not that you should be pulling the trigger without comfimation but as we all know **** happens. First hit typically win and the laser is a tool that aids in allowing you to get your gun up and running quickly, as soon as you clear leather.



In addittion to all the other benefits, and there are many, the laser allows you to make accurate shots when you have lost your balance and no longer standing on two feet.



If you really want to learn to control the trigger on your weapon its a great training tool as well as the laser will show you things that you would otherwise never believe.



Try one, and take a class from a good instrutor who can show you the proper use and you will soon own more than one.

 

[Bowie Tactical]

crossgun, A-men well said. If any of you know Ken Hackathorn you will also know at one time he was a real skeptic when it came to lasers. Try asking him now. OVer time and like all of use with more shootings and training we all learn, or should be learning new things that work and don't. Lasers work.

CHECK 360

David Bowie

 

[CCM]

I was a skeptic of the laser in a big way and decided that it could be used as a crutch and if you had multiple lasers, you wouldn't know which dot was yours.



I attended a two day 1911 Operator Class taught by Ken Hackathorn. After the night shoot, I brought that question to him (about multiple dots).



He put me on the ten yardline with a 1911 that was equipped with laser. The drill goes as follows:



On threat command, draw and fire four rounds in the chest and one in the head as three other shooters and an instructor are also lasing (sp?) the target (of course they do not fire). He told me to go as fast as I could and I think the sights were taped (can't remember that detail, but I can tell you I didn't use them). It was after the night shoot so the conditions were low light (but not completely dark).



On the threat command I fired as fast as I could using the laser (which suprised me how fast it was). The body shots were in and the head shot was right on. The other dots did not confuse me. It is hard to explain, but I was easily able to tell which dot was mine. It was almost intuitive.



I quickly bought a set of Crimson Trace Laser Grips and started training with them. To parrot you guys, it is another tool in the box.



I have found through informal experimentation that the laser isn't for weak shooters. If you can't shoot with sights, a laser isn't going to be magic.



Sorry for the long winded post, and only my second to boot.



Be Safe,

Chuck



edited for spelling

 

[ClosetCaseNerd]

Good post CCM, and long winded posts are great if they are full of useful information, as yours was. Direct experience such as yours is appreciated!

 

[NCPatrolAR]

CCM

I have done the multiple dot test with Hackathorn and Larry Vickers. It was in the Vickers class that I truely started to see all of the benfits to laser.



I also used the LAsermax system when I went through the Team One Netowrk Lowlight-Laser Instructor course and had what I learned with LAV reconfirmed.

 

[CCM]

ClosetCaseNerd, thanks for the feed back, I was afraid that the description of the drill didn't make sense.



NCPatrolAR, there are many anti-laser guys in my department and on my team, but the Hackathorn/Vickers Dot Test (I think that you have named this drill) continues to convert all those who will do it.



Its an amazing drill to see how fast and intuitive a laser can be.



The thing that really hurt my opinion of lasers was when the Insight lights (the M1 and M3 or possibly the M6 I think) started to come out with the laser underneath, a laser that was either impossible or very difficult to make elevation and windage adjustments on.



The Crimson Trace product is just easier to use then other products.



Eidited to add that my use of the M1/M3/M6 is slight at best and involved me trying to help a patrol officer with his unit that he just purchased, so my base of knowledge is slim and should in no way be taken as a blanket condemnation of the Insight unit, they may be great. I guess that I just prefer the Crimson Trace product.



I've had no direct use of the Lasermax system, NCPatrolAR are there any plans for a MP lasermax?

 

[TAZ]

Thanks for the responses. Having never really used a laser, I guess the best thing to do is find one that I can try and see how it works for my needs.

 

[NCPatrolAR]

.



NCPatrolAR, there are many anti-laser guys in my department and on my team, but the Hackathorn/Vickers Dot Test (I think that you have named this drill) continues to convert all those who will do it.



Its an amazing drill to see how fast and intuitive a laser can be.

In my experience, most of the negatice hype comes from people that have had either very little exposure to lasers (deployment, training, etc) or are resistent to change (aka we dont need semiautos... revolvers work just fine). Once you get the system in their hands and get them working with it they start to see there really arent a lot of shortcomings to their use in the proper context.

I've had no direct use of the Lasermax system, NCPatrolAR are there any plans for a MP lasermax?

- I havent heard of one being built yet. We were using LM units installed on Springfield XD's during the course and that was their newest product at the time.

 

[gotm4]

I think they make good training aids, so you can see what your draw and muzzle are doing. Other than that I don't want nor use them.



I've been shooting for 32yrs, and guess what? Anything that keeps/gets you from looking at your front sight is bad.

 

[Sporwick]

I've had no direct use of the Lasermax system, NCPatrolAR are there any plans for a MP lasermax?

I may have posted this on this forum before but I can not remember. I contacted lasermax about plans for an internal laser for the M&P compact and their response is below. He made it seem as though not only were they not producing for the compact but the entire M&P line.



"Thank you for the interest in our products. Unfortunately we currently do

not have a internal sight for the Smith M&P and do not have plans to build

a sight for that weapon any time in the near future. Our new rail mounted

laser may be the option for you. More information on that sight can be found

on our web page: http://www.lasermax.com/product.php?id=104 ."

 

[f-bomb]

i have two defenses FOR the laser and one AGAINST.



the bad- alot of guys i see get lasers, go to range and just keep goofing off with it. yes, i believe you need to practice with a laser to be the most effective with it... but if you arent practicing actual sighting and shooting at the range... you'll lose your skills and become dependent on the laser. your batteries go out... youre screwed.



the good- it is a good practice tool. at home, i find a mark at 50 feet, while i have index finger blocking the beam. i sight in, lower my finger, so i can see where i would have "hit". it's good for testing your sighting in that sense. when dry firing with snap caps, the laser shows every flaw. it shows how bad youre shaking, if you arent sighting properly... you can even watch the movement of the laser to judge if you are jerking the trigger, moving the gun's aim while pulling the trigger...etc. so, i do think it's a handy training device.



the other good- we can all become great marksmen. but shooting at paper, cans or fruit... look, fruit dosent startle you or shoot back. in the unfortunate instance that a bg launches a sudden assault, you're going to be shaken up, jumpy, off gaurd.... being well trained with a laser, in a situation where you wont have time to sight in, would be a good thing.



at closer distances you can often successfully "point and shoot". hower, using a point and shoot method, has advantages when you can see exactly where your gun is pointing.



so... train with both a laser AND normal sight shooting... and i firmly believe you'll be well rounded no matter what you want to carry.

 

[sholling]

I have CTs on two of my 1911s, and will be adding them to my M&P. They're just one more tool that has it's place, and I've been shooting for 45 years.

The don't force me to ignore practicing with iron sights. 90% of my practice is with iron sights. The nice thing about CTs is that they go on and off instant as you need it. Just squeeze the grips a tiny bit tighter and you have a red dot on target.

 

[mity2]

despite of worning from seller, I bought NuiMax for my M&P. While it does what it supposed to do(Bullit goes where red dot is), it just simply don't hold up. Mine is going back to them on warrenty for the 3rd time for switch becoming too lose, and laser shut itself off after first round goes bang.



I'm really interested in CT's for M&P. But i hear they are sized between mid and lg, and i use small insert, and when I tried mid insert, I can't shoot!