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Discussion Starter #1
Just a quick background before I ask the question.



I recently graduated the Ohio Peace Officers Training Academy. I was sponsored through by the S.O that I work for in a Corrections capacity. I am currently waiting for him to swear us in. I dont have years of wisdom on the streets but I do have a preconceived notion of how I would do things especially after being in the corrections field for 5+ yrs.



Anyway, I was at another board looking around and gleaning anything that I could as far as LE knowledge. I stumbled upon a thread asking what kind of firearm our agency carries. One of the posts stated that everyone in a LE department should carry the same caliber firearm in case you have to "borrow" ammo from someone.



Now, this to me is unfathomable therefore, I disagreed. It seemed like the moment I hit the send button I was gang raped...LOL.



I was an a**hole, with my attitude I shouldnt be a cop, stick with corrections, and keep my POS S&W because they suck...I mean all kinds of crap.



What did I say in my post?? I disagreed with them and said that my ammunition is MY ammunition. Why would I give away all of ammunition only to find myself without any?



I guess I was/am in the unpopular opinion group...LOL. Does anyone else feel this way or am I the only one in the nation??



Just curious to hear what you think.



-J
 

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If I had three full mags and I showed up to back-up someone that ran through all theirs, hell yeah I would share. The bullet I give may save him and/or me!!



The golden rule says: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"!



If you ran out in a fire fight, wouldn't you want a pard to hand you a mag?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
What are the odds that a prepared officer, with at very least 3 mags, is going to encounter a situation where he has to fire off 51 rounds? We know that most firefights last seconds and occur within 21 feet. Anything longer will most likely turn into a stand off.



Now, if we were fighting to take a forward position ala military operations, that would be different. Here, I just dont see a need to "resupply" if you were prepared to begin with.



Again, I know I'm of the unpopular opinion. Thats fine. I was just wondering if anyone could understand where I'm coming from. Bottom line is I'd rather have ammo to protect me and you than to give you all of my ammo and rest my life in your hands.



-J
 

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someone been posting to glock talk?

yeah, i get it.

if a fellow cop can burn through all 25-49 rounds on his duty belt without making any progress, and all of a sudden he wants my ammo, that tells me a couple of things.

first, the S has certainly hit the fan, and second, this may be a diminishing returns situation where continued engagement with a pistol will likely have little effect on the continued threat. and third, maybe this guy with the empty gun is not taking full advantage of the resources at his/her disposal (spray and pray).



still, you're not going to make any friends in LE circles by introducing yourself that way.



i've worked with some fine officers (vast majority), but theres a couple or three that i don't think should be armed in the first place. i'm not going to declare what i will or will not do in the middle of a gun battle, but i will say that giving 1/3 of my ammo supply to someone that barely qualifies with their sidearm once per year may not actually increase anyone's chances of survival. maybe we'd all be better off with them retrieving a a long gun from the car or something.



all of these arguments come back to the response to the North Hollywood bank robbery.

supposedly, there were officers fighting over spare mags as those two kept officers pinned down with AK fire.

still, i think the way it played out showed that continued engagement with 9mm pistols would not have made a lick of difference. some problems are just beyond the reach of a pistol.

being outgunned sucks. having a shitload of ammo to lob downrange doesn't always change that.

stay safe
 

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You have to understand that they are coming form the perspective that LEOs should do whatever it takes to help a fellow officer. You broke formation and they pounced.



So let's say you have the same caliber, but what if you have different weapons, which is something that is becoming more and more common these days? Is that other officer going to dump your mags and then reload his one at a time? Its not very practical.



With the little bit of information you've provided, I think they just perceived you as selfish and not willing to go the extra mile for your partner, which is essentially breaking the golden rule of LE.
 

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It is a good idea to carry the same caliber and make of the generally issued weapon; however, until you work the road full-time I would not overly concern myself with what you carry so long as you can qualify with it. Hopefully, once you are promoted out of the jail and onto the road, your S.O. issues the duty weapon and it will no longer be an issue.



Many smaller counties, especially south of I-70 do not issue weapons; however, publish a list of those weapons and calibers suitable for duty. In that scenario, it doesn't really matter in regards to uniformity since there isn't any uniformity to begin with.



Bottom line, you didn't break ranks, and shouldn't concern yourself with such an issue. Stay proficient and keep the powder dry.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Exactly, Buck53!! Thanks for understanding



choochboost, you bring up a good point as well. We are authorized to carry a 5906, 6906, or MP9. I dont know about the 59 or 69 magazines being interchangable but I do know that an MP9 mag will not fit either.



gtmtnbiker98, thanks for your post too. Not only did you seem to understand where I'm coming from you also ride a GT so youve gotta be OK...LOL.



I've got an old DB Topenga that hasn't seen any real hills since I left Alaska...poor girl prolly doesnt know what to do with herself all hung out in the garage.



Anyway, thanks for the insightful posts everyone. I appreciate the fact the tact shown by all.



-J
 

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On my corrections end of things I wouldn't give my ammo out but to only a FEW officers I work with only because I know they can shoot.

Virginia unfortunately doesn't spend near enough time training. Case in point. The last time I had to qualify we shoot 60 rounds. I had a target with 61 rounds in it (60 were mine) and the person who shot mine couldn't qualify. I had a fellow officer ask why I didn't help her out ( shoot her target a few times). I said "Would you wont a fellow officer covering you and you knew for a fact they couldn't shoot?". Let me keep my ammo I might be the one saving us both.

We still carry revolvers with lead ammo and it doesn't look like VA is going to upgrade anytime soon. Some of our institutions carry 12 rounds and others carry 18. I need my ammo.

The reloading is a WHOLE another issue I cringe at thinking about with these same officers.
 

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With that attitude about helping out a fellow LEO, I think you need to stay in Corrections. You truly don't need to be out on the road thinking that way. I wonder if your fellow LEO's on your Dept. know your way of thinking. Did you learn this type of assist technique in the Ohio Training Academy. I don't think you would survive long on to many dept's. Besides this is 2007, every day is a different challenge out in the real world. My LEO feelings. Good Day.



rogero
 
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Rog ole buddy,



You have wasted all your ammo and are still in deep do-do and now you want to waste mine too. I think not. Learn to shoot.



Now I remember why I carried a 41 mag on duty.
 

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One thing nobody mentioned is the fact that

most Police forces buy their ammo in large

quantities. They issue it for practice as well

as for duty carry. They are also protected

when some bad guy is shot. Because the

officer in question used Department ammunition.



Zeke
 

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You'd figure that LEO that post would want help out the newbie. Even start a discussion on the merits of sharing ammo. Frankly i'm a little sickened by the undeserved flaming you have received. Choochboost also made a valid point about incompatible magazines.



I have alot of respect for peace officers that have to deal with the worst sorts of people 90% of the time. Maybe it does leave a mark.



Good luck to you F15-Loader.
 

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How would you feel if you were the one that needed another magazine or ammunition and no one would give it to you? Would you let someone else use your handcuffs? What about using a pen? Would you be willing to use your first aid kit on a wounded partner?

I carry extra ammunition and mags just for things like this. Maybe I will need it or maybe someone else will. Especially during an active shooter call. It is also another reason I carry a BUG. I have had to arm fellow officers a few times with my BUG. I would much rather have an armed partner helping me out than someone that is limited to a sharp stick and foul language.

Get out on the street and get into something nasty then see if you feel the same way. If you do I might suggest you find something else to do.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I've spoken with a couple of my LEO buddies that are range masters.



They say they would, without a doubt maintain their own ammo. They say that the largest percentage of people they see on the range shouldnt be allowed to carry let alone actually fire a weapon.



They also stated what I was thinking and what Buck53 said...if you arent making headway with your 51 rounds, why would I give up my ammo and hinder/handicap myself?



They also asked how many of the people that were "talking SH**" had actually ever been in a firefight let alone one that lasted long enough to have to bum ammo off of a buddy.



Anyway, after talking to them I came to this conclusion...if, for some reason, you end up needing ammo or you will die, I'll take care of you. If youre a pray and spray type...pull back and I'll cover you.



rost0125,



Thanks for your insightful and enlightening post. Having served 10 yrs active duty military, I know a thing or 2 about taking care of people. I also know that risk assessment says that you help no one when dead. So, lets look at some things here.



Youve blown through 51 rounds.



You want 17+ of my rounds thus handicapping me by 17 rounds...I'm down to 34 now.



10 min later...What? You need 17 more rounds? OK...because rost0125 said I was a buster, I'll give em to ya.



At what point do you stop this process?? When you run out?? So what, you start borrowing from someone??



I have a hard time believeing that you cant see the logic in this.



-J
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Narcdog...



I'm not saying that I wouldnt help another officer...not by any means. I'm saying that there are certain situations in which youd be a fool to handicap yourself. If I was carrying extra ammo, sure take some, but if we come to a scene with one mag in the weapon and 2 on my hip, what should I give you?? The 2 I have in reserve? Maybe I'll follow you around after Im out??



Again thanks for your response..atleast it wasnt attacking and trite.



-J
 

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narcodog said:
I have had to arm fellow officers a few times with my BUG. I would much rather have an armed partner helping me out ..


i use this logic to try and convince fellow officers to carry a BUG.

care to share some of your experiences where you gave up your BUG to a fellow officer?

all my hypothetical scenarios seem to get scoffed at.



i've heard of it but never met anyone that actually did it.

that's an awesome way to convince younger guys to actually carry one.
 

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Most of the cops in here are giving him (a C/O) a hard time. Unless you all on the street have worked in a state prison or in a jail think about this first.



We as C/O's (me included) have to work with this same scum day after day with no weapons or body armor. you only have to see them when you arrest them.



We also have to deal with some of the officers we work with, whom our institutions hire because they need a body to feel a slot. I have seen a female officer fired for bringing in crack. I have seen a female officer fired because she gave the underwear she was waring to a inmate for a honey bun.



The worst thing is the fact that the rest of the officers they work with didn't know until after the point.



This brings up another point as to why some C/O's feel the way we do about certain things.



Please try not to judge us before you have walked a FEW miles in our shoes and my previous post still applies to the way I feel.



Loyalty or Honesty. Witch is more important to you?



C/O's have to worry about it. Gang bangers trying to get jobs as C/O's to infiltrate the prison and yes sometimes it happens. That crip officer that just slipped through is he going to help his fellow officers or is he going to help his crips?



Jeff Reeves

C/O Green Rock Correctional Center

VADOC.
 
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