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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

Hope this is the right forum to post these reviews, if not please move them.



LIGHTS FOR CCW AND LAW ENFORCEMENT



Hi guys,

I have about 200 lights between flashlights and tactical lights, and also this idea of taking beam shots, so members can compare between them.



First, lets take a look at some lights that are used by police for traffic stops, search and even clearing houses.

These are not for CCW, but good to have in the car or truck to take care of big illumination needs.







This post will try to show how different lights used in law enforcement compare with each other, and will clarify the difference between the lumen ratings used in Luxeon (LED) lights and incandescent lights.

In short, I will show (through pictures) how Luxeons lack definition when used at increased distances.



I have maintained for a long time that LED Luxeons don’t have the range over the incandescent to really be helpful for law enforcement. They are excellent lights to use inside the house; their beams are very clean, white and with substantial flood, and in the average house, that is all you need. However, when taken outside to the backyard, woods, or large structure and the distance to the target is 25 yards or more, they lack definition (as they lack the red spectrum of light), and their poor penetration of fog or rain makes them inefficient to clearly identify what you are seeing at that distance.

Moreover, when the subject being illuminated is an animal with a light-drinking fur (depth of texture), the blending effect of the LED’s (against the background) will cause the observer to lose perspective.



LOW LIGHT FOR WRITING



As I am in contact with police officers that tell me what they really need to perform their functions at night, I think that I know more than the average guy what is needed for those officers.

What those experienced officers want are three lights that will cover specific illumination chores.

First, when writing a ticket at night, or looking for a dropped pencil in the floor of their own car or any other close up chore, they want a flood light in LED form: small and with an output of 20 lumens or less (LED lumens), and preferably with a clip incorporated to free both hands for holding the pad and writing.



LEO’s that have used the Fenix LOP (1 AAA) consider this light ideal (except for the lack of a clip). Another favorite is the ARC AAA. These lights can be held in the mouth without any discomfort.



Fenix has put out a bigger light (1 AA) with two stages output, and the lower output will be also ideal for these chores.



THE BELT LIGHT



Those same officers want to have a good light on their belt. Some prefer the two cell 123’s lights like the Surefire 6P, G2, or C-2 for their better flood beam over the more tightly focused Streamlight Scorpion, TL-2 and Night Fighter II (it is important for them to be able to cover an average room with the light, without the need of panning it).

They look for a run time of one hour and an output of 65 lumens.

Some opt for more intense lights like the Surefire 9P or the C-3 with their 105 lumens and one hour run time.

The Streamlight TL-3 is a little too tightly focused for clearing rooms, but it will do fine in an average backyard.

In LED form (Luxeon V), the Surefire L-4 is a good contender due to the excellent flood light that it puts out at medium range inside a house.



The main thing is that the officers want to avoid losing precious seconds by panning a light when entering a room. That is why the Surefires are preferred over the tightly focused others brands.



HERE IS A PICTURE OF SOME OF THE CONTENDERS, FROM LEFT TO RIGHT; THE MAGCHARGER 200 LUMENS AND 6 VOLTS BATTERY STICK, THE STREAMLIGHT ULTRA STINGER 295 LUMENS AND 6 VOLTS BATTERY STICK AND THE BOREALIS 1050 LUMENS (TWO MILLION CANDLEPOWER) AND ROLLS ROYCE BATTERY CARRIER WITH 12 VOLTS SYSTEM















THE CAR LIGHT



These police officers wear a light holder in their belt (a plastic and leather ring). On exiting their cars, they slip in the ring one of the powerful rechargeable lights, most commonly the Magcharger (200 lumens) or the Ultra Stinger (295 lumens) and sometimes a BOREALIS 1050 lumens.



Those are ideal lights for search, clearing houses, backyards, warehouses etc. Being rechargeable, they are always used with a maximum run time (taken out of the charger at start of the shift), a thing that you can not do with 123 batteries unless you are willing to dump half-used batteries at the start of a shift.



Their large diameter (2 inches) reflectors put more light at a longer distance than any of the belt lights. Even though some of the belt lights approach 200 lumens, they do it with reduced run time and much reduced throw, due to their small diameter reflectors.

A Magcharger will put a spot of light at 150 yards, as will the Ultra Stinger and a BOREALIS, which has the capability of illuminating the whole road for 250 yards.



Those lights are ideal for traffic stops, accident sites and the ones with major lumen output can even illuminate through heavily tinted windows, which makes them ideal car’s lights or for using in an emergency situation.





Lets start with the popular Surefire G-2 (or 6 P) at 65 lumens, the target is the 8 by 12 tool shed at 30 yards.

We are going to pit the Surefire G-2 65 lumens $35.00 against the Surefire Digital Lumamax L-4 (also 65 lumens and with a price tag of $160.00).



Surefire G-2 65 lumens







Surefire L-4 Luxeon V, LED, 65 lumens







And now we are going to pit the Surefire 6 P with the P-61 120 lumen lamp (20 minutes run time) against the best Luxeon LED thrower that I have (similar to the cree LED).

This is a Mc Gizmo PR T head with a TWOJ bin Luxeon doing 120 plus lumens.



Surefire Centurion C-2 (same as the 6P) with the P-61 lamp, 120 lumens.







And the PR T with TWOJ bin Luxeon, (LED) @ 120 lumens







And now we are going to show a belt light of 200 lumens (The Surefire Centurion III with the P-91 lamp, 200 lumens, 20 minutes run) and three cars' lights of 200 lumens plus and beyond.



Surefire Centurion C-III, 200 lumens P-91 lamp.







And here the Magcharger also 200 lumens, with its bigger reflector and tighter focus will throw the light at 150 yards, while the Centurion III range will stop at 45 or 50 yards.



Magcharger 200 lumens (40,000 candlepowers)











And here is the Ultra Stinger, the most powerful of the Stingers rechargeables from Streamlight with 295 lumens and 75,000 candlepower, although this figure is largely inflated when you consider that is about “bulb” lumens and not torch or “real” lumens.











And now the BOREALIS, with the format of a 3 D (12 1/2 inches long) outputting 1050 lumens (two million candlepower) for 50 minutes.









Do I need to say anything about the importance of a powerful light for police use when clearing a backyard or wooded area?

As you well can see the capabilities of each light from these pictures.





Best regards,

Watchmaker
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
MORE LIGHTS FOR CCW AND LAW ENFORCEMENT





As a continuation of the first post and for whatever value it has, I am going to do some more shoot outs of a mix of popular Luxeon lights and incandescent ones.



The first order of things is to change the target area, to make it a little more interesting to my viewers.

Consequently I replaced the tool shed target with a deer and bear mount.

The deer head mounted on the tree is exactly 26 yards from my second story window from where the lights are shinning.

The bear head in the fence is only six more feet further away from the tree.



In the summer I have plenty of bushy cover in the area, but this time I had to be creative and cut and nailed to the tree and fence, some branches from a pine tree, not to hide the animals from view, just to provide a natural blending effect, like they were coming from a natural habitat.



The camera was placed twelve foot away from the tree (and eighteen feet from the bear) in a solid tripod, and the night camera mode used (this mode shows in pictures the same light values that I am seeing with my own eyes).



The close proximity of the camera is for the viewer to see the target with clarity; if I were to place the camera 26 yards away the target will be awfully small.



Here it is the target area and how it looks in daylight.







And here are the contenders, but before I describe them, let me voice my opinion that some manufacturers of Luxeon lights label the output in lumens in quite a wild way.









From left to right: # 1 Fenix L1P at about 40 lumens, # 2 Nuwaii Q III at 75 lumens (yes, sure!) # 3 Surefire L-4 Digital Lumamax at 65 lumens (this is a Luxeon V which is quite a flood light but with little throw).



# 4 Streamlight Task-Light 2 L (two Lithium 3 volts batteries, high and low output,

Cost is about $77.00) This is billed at a High Flux Luxeon III. With 75 lumens, which I think is about right.



# 5 is the Streamlight Pro Polymer 4 AA with a Luxeon I, billed as 40 lumens (3,500 candlepower according to the advertising) which I think is quite wrong, as it appears to me to have about 70 lumens or more, this light has a bigger and deeper reflector than the others lights and the beam is concentrated more than the others. This is a great light for the price of about $40.00



# 6, this is a PR T Luxeon III head done for me by master modder McGizmo, it is set on a Surefire E2e body and I am using two rechargeable 123’s with a voltage of 4.2 volts in it.

This light is my best Luxeon III light and up to two years ago it was pretty HOT STUFF, today the cree LED’s are approaching it in intensity, although it has not been overpower by any other Luxeon, yet.

My friends told me I have two of the Integrated Sphere Spectotometers just above my nose, those spheres are telling me that this light makes 120 to 130 “real” lumens.



# 7, this is A Surefire Centurion II in black with the P-60 lamp (65 lumens) this represents all the others Surefires lights that use this lamp, G-2, 6P. Z-2. etc.



# 8, this is another Surefire Centurion II, but in Hard anodized, it wears the HOLA lamp. The P-61 with the output of 120 lumens for 20 minutes.



# 9 this is a Surefire Centurion III (3 cells) this is usually sold with the P-90 lamp that makes 105 lumens for one hour, but in this case is set up with the P-91 lamp for 200 lumens for 20 minutes, as you will see in the picture later, the floodlight effect is great at 26 yards. All those P’s lamps start to lose range at about 45 to 50 yards, this is because the reflectors are fabricated to produce a good flood so police officers can clear houses with them.

I took this particular light out of my Remington 742 rifle, where it sits in the special quick detach mount in a Picattiny rail.



# 10, this is the BEAR CUB, this light weights 13 oz and measures 9 inches long, it works with two Lithium Ion computer batteries, and produces 220 plus lumens for 90 minutes. Thanks to the big and deep 2 inch mirror-like reflector, this light concentrates the beam like a laser and has a throw of 120 to 150 yards.

So the 26 yards distance is like child play for the Bear Cub and the light is so intense at the target that they had to close their eyes!



# 11, (last on the left lying in horizontal position next to the Bear Cub) this light is a KL-1 head Luxeon I of three years ago, it is set up in a Surefire Outdoorsman body and the lumens output is no more than 20, consequently I decided to strike it out from the competition, there is no room in my stable for weaklings and I will present it to my nephew on his birthday quite soon.



And now let’s go to the pictures:



Fenix L1P (40 lumens) Luxeon I







Nuwaii Q III (advertised at 75 lumens in a website, which I don’t believe) Luxeon III.









Surefire L-4 Digital Lumamax (65 lumens) this is very flood light and the lumens spread in a very wide area, so it cannot be expected to have a good throw at 26 yards. (Luxeon V ~which are 4 of the one watt together)









Streamlight Task Light 2 L about 75 lumens on high, works on two 123’s batteries and has two levels of illumination. High Flux Luxeon III. About $77.00







Streamlight Poly Pro 4 AA Luxeon. This light has a deep and bigger reflector, the Luxeon is I, according to the manufacturer, is listed at 40 lumens, but to my eyes is doing about 75 lumens.

For the price of $40.00 this is a great light, and very battery friendly as it uses regulars AA.

I feed this light, rechargeable Nimhs AA of high current (Powerex 2700 mah) that hovers around 1.4 volts for weeks consequently it costs me nothing to operate it.











Mc Gizmo PR T head on Surefire body, Luxeon III, TWOJ bin,

My best Luxeon light putting out 120 to 130 lumens. This is a collector’s item and was state of the art, less than two years ago.

I have found nothing new that can approach its power, except the new cree 7090 that is getting close.







Surefire Centurion II in black with the P-60 lamp (65 lumens for one hour)











Surefire Centurion II in Hard anodized with the P-61 lamp (120 lumens for 20 minutes)







Surefire Centurion III in hard anodized, with the P-91 lamp (200 lumens for 20 minutes) as you can see it is a great flood at 26 yards.











BEAR CUB running for 90 minutes on two computer Lithium Ion batteries, driving a Xenon Magnum Star bulb for 5 cells pretty hard at 8.4 volts at 220 lumens (which make it a very white light) with a reach of 120 to 150 yards, even surpassing the Ultra Stinger.







Best regards

Watchmaker
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
THE SUREFIRE E2E

here is one more:

As the Surefire E2e is a very common light in the bow hunting and gun hunting scene and also for law enforcement, here it is.





The little MN03 lamp (60 lumens for 75 minutes) in the E2e is a big performer, I like myself this little light a lot, and I think it qualifies as a tactical light to be used at close to medium range if the need arise.

The MN02 lamp can be substituted for more run time, as it is 25 lumens for 2 1/2 hours, I actually prefer this lamp for hiking in the trails and other general chores, but I will use the 60 lumens lamp for blood trailing a deer or bear, although I don't consider 60 lumens good enough for blood tracking.

For CCW in the city where it is a lot of ambient light, I think the little E2e will do fine.



Red, blue and infrared filters are available from Surefire and vendors such as Cabela's. The red is used to walk in the trails or follow the cat-eye tacks when you go toward the stand in the pre-dawn darkness and don’t want to pollute the woods with light, and the blue to bring up the blood drops in the leaves.

If I insist so much in the capabilities of this light for outdoor use, is because so many of them were sold to hunters.



The E2e is 4 1/2 inches long and weighs at 3 .1 oz., is available in hard anodized type III and will not scratch easily, but it can be rough on your pocket liner. Other finishes are available sometimes. A tear drop bezel model is done in nickel plated and the wine light in regular anodized with a wine burgundy color.



Here is a picture of a few of the versions of the E2e.











And here is the beam shot at the same distance as the others above (26 yards) and the camera placed at the same distance (12 feet to the Deer head and 18 to the Bear head).









I can tell you that the light is fairly waterproof. I don’t have a pool to try it at a few feet, but it survived quite well in my 3 ½ gallon beer glass for several hours.







Kind regards,



Watchmaker
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
This is a post I did for another forum a couple of years ago, it just list the most popular positions, for shooting with a pistol.



Shooting in low light





I am going to explain how to employ the useful techniques of using a flashlight with a pistol, especially useful for those flashlights that have a tactical switch.



As many of the members already have a Surefire of two or three batteries with a tactical switch or a similar one of another brand, going from 60 to 200 lumens, I am going to explain the two most popular techniques. One is the Harries which I have already explained in the previous post in conjunction with the Borealis 1050 lumens light.



The Harries technique











Michael Harries invented this position and it is considered one of the first positions ever that coordinates the use of the flashlight using the two hands.

For using with tactical switch lights (with a switch in the tail), the flashlight is grasped with the left hand around the body and the thumb will activate the switch.

For lights with switch on the top (as the Magcharger, Stinger and Borealis) the index finger is used to press the switch down without clicking it on (if you drop your light you don’t want it to illuminate you)

The back of the hands are pressed together and maintain an isometric tension to help control the recoil of the gun. Your wrists will be crossed and the light will be parallel or close to the muzzle of the gun.



The Roger-Surefire









Holster maker, ex FBI agent, and competition shooter Bill Rogers teamed up with Surefire to adapt a rubber grommet or washer to the Surefire 6 Z (now available in most combat models of Surefire and copied by others light makers).

The position is also called the cigar position, as you grasp the body of the flashlight like a cigar, with the index and middle finger. The tail cap is resting on the fleshy part below your thumb and a little pressure back on the rubber ring will activate the light (the tail cap button resting in that part below your thumb will switch the light on).

That position will let you grasp the hand shooting the pistol with three fingers of the left hand, and it is the only position that let you use a two-handed grip on the gun



The Chapman technique









Ray Chapman was the first IPSC world champion. He invented his position for use with the Kel-Lites of the 1970’s (probably the first high quality Police Flashlight) that have a sliding switch on top of the barrel. It is still a great position to use for those that don’t want to cross the wrists as in the Harries position when using a big flashlight.

It is well suited for the Maglites or Stingers and for the modification of the Maglite like the Borealis 1050 lumens flashlight.



You just grasp the flashlight as you usually do, with your thumb in the switch and your fingers circling the barrel and you bring it up to index your fingernails with the fingernails of the shooting hand.



In my other post I have mentioned the old FBI technique which is to separate the flashlight high and away from you in order to confuse you opponent about your position, however it will not work on hallways and narrow places, so is better to have knowledge of all the positions to fit them to each particular situation.



Another technique that doesn’t offer any support to the shooting hand but it can be very useful when using a pistol with lousy sights (original 1911, Luger, etc) is the one I used more than 40 years ago when I started combat shooting.

It indexes the light on top of my head, letting the light fall on a line from the sights to the target. Even the minuscule back up .380 or the Baby Browning sights gets illuminated using this ridiculous position.



In closing, I would like to say that in my opinion lights with less than 60 lumens are out of the new low light fighting techniques.

For my belt light I will prefer to have a minimum of 200 lumens, using the Surefire C-3 and the P-91 lamp as my favorite if in civilian clothing and a Bear Cub if in uniform (as the bigger head of the Bear Cub is not easy to conceal.



But if I have to clear a big room, warehouse or backyard, I prefer a light with more power. My Surefire M-6 with the 500 lumens lamp will do, but I prefer even more lumens to really blind, disorient, and roast my opponent. That is when I use the Borealis 1050 lumens light.



These positions I have shown here will work with big lights too (except for the cigar position), the thing you will have to remember is that when you need a light in a hairy situation you need it badly and that two is better than one, so a big light in your hand to blind you opponent and another smaller light in your belt as a back up is better than only one. (Two is one and one is none).



Cheers

Watchmaker
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
THE STREAMLIGHT SCORPION



I like the little Scorpion a lot, to be honest; it is a powerful (at 6,500 candle powers) light (at 4.4 oz), not too long at 4.9 inches, and with a great feel in the hand thanks to the rubber boot that covers the body.

This rubber boot can be especially beneficial in the winter when others lights left in the trunk are too cold to hold without gloves.











The switch is momentary and click on, exactly as I want my switches; it is located in the back of the light and protected by the rubber boot.

The momentary works well. The click is in my case, though, is too difficult to operate with my big thumb and I have to click it with my index finger.

But rarely do I use the click, as this light can be used as a “tactical” light and the momentary mode is preferred when using it with a gun. (You don’t want to drop the light “on” and that it will illuminate you or your partner, which is the reason to use the momentary).



The light uses two 123’s batteries and run a xenon bulb for one hour. This xenon bulb is quite small (a spare is located in the bulb holder inside the head). I will hate to have to change it in less than normal conditions; for starters you have to pry a cover from the bulb holder to access the spare, you will have a few small parts in your hands, and you will need calm conditions and plenty of light to do the job properly.



For those situations I really prefer the big bulbs with reflector included of the Surefires’ or even the smaller but easy to handle bulb of the E2e’s.



Why I consider this so important? Well, the bulb is rated for 5 hours of life, which is extremely short.



I say I like this light, but it is really not rational because we have much better designs for a tactical light. The little Scorpion will roll out on a table that is not perfectly flat, for lack of an anti-roll bezel. Surefires are much better in this department.



The beam can be adjusted by rotating the head (the filament of the bulb will go lower or higher inside the reflector), in reality I have the light set to maximum throw that will not show any artifacts and I don’t twist the head at all because the quality of the beam will be spoiled by artifacts and black spots.

This light is good for throw (considering the small reflector), and the quality of the beam, when set at near maximum throw, is good, producing a nice round circle due to the short filament.



The lens is polycarbonate. I would like to see it changed to Pyrex, but that is only my personal feeling that this light should deserve a better lens.

I bought mine two years ago from Cabela’s and it cost me $38.00; I think that the price is right for a quality made American product.

The bulbs run about $6.00 each and I also consider them in price, they are so bright because they are overdriven (hence their short life of 5 hours).



I have seen a holster for the light made out of Cordura Nylon, but I haven’t tried it and I don’t know if is any issues in removing the light quickly, the rubber boot cause me trouble when removing the light from tight pockets (read Jean’s) but is okay when the pocket is from s dress pants.

I also have seen filters made for this light in red, blue and yellow for those that would like to penetrate the deer’s woods with a minimum of light pollution.



As always the beam shots are coming from 26 yards away and my camera tripod is in the same position, 12 feet from the deer and 18 from the bear.

I have also included as way of comparison the beam shot with the P-60 lamp out of a Surefire Centurion C-2 (read it also Surefire 6P, Z-2, G-2 D-2 etc).



SCORPION’S BEAM







P-60 LAMP FROM a Surefire Centurion II







You will notice that the beam of the Scorpion is more concentrated than the P-60 lamp, making the target clearer at this distance, for tactical situations at short range the P-60 lamp is better for the extra flood, it will be easier to clear a room with a Surefire without the need to pan the light to cover it all.



Cheers,

Watchmaker
 

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Wow. What a read! Alot of info there and quite entertaining. Very good report 8) . I like the 4 cell Maglite. Lite enough to carry and aim, good light and If all else fails at least you can "give" the BG the torch... :wink: :wink:





 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
THE ASP TAC LITE



This is another very popular tactical light in the law enforcement circles, it is five inches long and one inch in diameter. As with the other tactical lights, it works for about an hour on two of the 123’s disposable batteries.







This is the bulb of the ASP light, with a shock absorbing material wrapped around the base







The ASP line of batons is very famous for quality and craftsmanship; this light can be coupled to an ASP baton if you so desire.



Quality foam insulates the middle of the light and is a very welcome addition in the winter months when all metal lights are too cold to handle.

The Company states 7,000 candlepower for this light

. Candlepower in this light are high because the beam is quite concentrated. The ASP TAC LITE is famous for having a far-throwing beam.

The reason for it is the smooth-mirror polished reflector and the shape of the filament of the bulb, which forms an arc, as it is quite short, the light is emitted from a smaller filament than those of others lights.



A light that reaches far is of dubious utility in the tactical field for clearing houses and the like, when its long throw hinders the flood capabilities of the instrument.

Although the light features an internal capability to make it throw more flood, it is internal and is based on repositioning the bulb in the reflector, which introduces a series of artifacts into the beam.

Surefire’s with P-60 or P-61 lamps are well established as the ones that everybody likes as far as beam throw and amount of side spill; after all, most gun fights in low light situations happen inside of a few yards, and a tight beam is more of a liability than of an asset.



However I see this light as a good contender to install it in an AR type rifle, where illumination at longer distances is needed and desired.



The tail-cap houses a nice electronic switch that is quite responsive to the touch of your thumb, the switch button is recessed and the light can be used on candle mode if the operator wishes to do so.

However none of the additional features so desirable in a tactical light are present here. There is no anti-roll bezel to stop the light from rolling of a table or inclined surface, there is no fluted cap so light can escape if the flashlight is set on a table head down, and no grommet or stop to position the light in the Rogers-Surefire position.



As always the bear is set up at 18 feet from the camera and the deer at 12 feet and the light of the ASP Tac Lite is coming from the second story window from 26 yards away.



For comparison here is the beam shot of the Surefire G-2 with the 65 lumens (P-60) lamp







And here is the beam shot of the ASP TAC LITE, notice how the concentrate light is brighter at the target than the G-2







Kind regards

Watchmaker
 

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Good info Watchmaker. I work uniform patrol in a medium size police department and have tried

MANY different flashlights. I own a Streamlight UltraStinger, Streamlight SL20 and the polymer

rechargeable model of the same size ( 20 XP?? ), and the MagCharger, all of which I have used

as a primary light. The one I like the most and now use exclusively is the MagCharger. It seems

to have the best "throw" of any of the lights listed above. The polymer Streamlight was a big

disappointment as I found it to be not very durable.



I also now own the new Streamlight LED Stinger, which I carry on my belt. I LOVE the strobe

feature, which works well on disorienting an uncooperative subject before you have to go "hands

on". I have found the switch to be less than durable, but this is a phenomenon found on most of

the Stinger lights, along with the Maglites. I used to carry the Surefire M3, which is a great light,

but even with Surefire brand batteries, gets a bit expensive to use.



I also carry a Surefire L4 clipped to my pants. This light, like you said, is great for room searches

or searching the interior of a vehicle, but less than desirable for general patrol use. I have the

6P and G2, which are also great lights.



Now to my question....Do you know anything about the new Pelican 7060 LED light that was

designed for and used by LAPD? I have read that it is rated at 130 lumens, which is great unless

it is rated like the UltraStinger is rated. I would like to combine my general patrol light and belt

light into one light, and any information you might have would be appreciated!!!



It would be nice to carry one less item on my belt, although it would appear that the new Pelican

could be carried on the belt if needed.



Also, where is the BOREALIS system sold?? It looks like a conversion for a Maglite....Any info...price, etc., would be appreciated!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
EMTCOP.

I haven't yet get one for testing, so I will reserve commentary, but those 130 lumens are LED, so it will not be as the same lumens throw by a Surefire 6P with P-61 lamp (120 lumens).

Incandescents will always have farther reach and will show detail better at a distance, and will penetrate better in fog or smoke conditions.



Watchmaker
 

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watchmaker said:
EMTCOP.

I haven't yet get one for testing, so I will reserve commentary, but those 130 lumens are LED, so it will not be as the same lumens throw by a Surefire 6P with P-61 lamp (120 lumens).

Incandescents will always have farther reach and will show detail better at a distance, and will penetrate better in fog or smoke conditions.



Watchmaker


Thanks, any info on the BOREALIS???? price....where can i get one....etc.
 

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Watchmaker,



I need to correct you on Streamlight. Numbers are not inflated, if anything we underrate them. Streamlight actually has a light range in their facility and more engineers on staff that design & develop lights than any other manufacturer. Streamlight is currently working to develop a Standard by which all lights are to be measured (easier said than done) as evey mfg. does it differently. One thing you fail to mention about our Ultra stinger is that it can be focused as can be the Scorpion. As far as smoke goes, live burn testing is conducted and our findings contradict what you say here. Many more details than can use words to describe but one must test under the these conditions. Customers need all the details.







watchmaker said:
EMTCOP.

I haven't yet get one for testing, so I will reserve commentary, but those 130 lumens are LED, so it will not be as the same lumens throw by a Surefire 6P with P-61 lamp (120 lumens).

Incandescents will always have farther reach and will show detail better at a distance, and will penetrate better in fog or smoke conditions.



Watchmaker
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Robert said:
Watchmaker,



I need to correct you on Streamlight. Numbers are not inflated, if anything we underrate them. Streamlight actually has a light range in their facility and more engineers on staff that design & develop lights than any other manufacturer. Streamlight is currently working to develop a Standard by which all lights are to be measured (easier said than done) as evey mfg. does it differently. One thing you fail to mention about our Ultra stinger is that it can be focused as can be the Scorpion. As far as smoke goes, live burn testing is conducted and our findings contradict what you say here. Many more details than can use words to describe but one must test under the these conditions. Customers need all the details.







[quote name='watchmaker']EMTCOP.

I haven't yet get one for testing, so I will reserve commentary, but those 130 lumens are LED, so it will not be as the same lumens throw by a Surefire 6P with P-61 lamp (120 lumens).

Incandescent will always have farther reach and will show detail better at a distance, and will penetrate better in fog or smoke conditions.



Watchmaker
[/quote]







Streamlight is currently working to develop a Standard by which all lights are to be measured (easier said than done) as evey mfg. does it differently.[quote/]



What is wrong with sticking the whole flashlight into an Integrated Sphere spectotometer, like Surefire does? It will give you the "torch" lumens value, instead of the "bulb" lumens that you are using, now. As you may know, the bulb lumens is higher because it does not take into account the loses from reflector and from reflection of the lens.



As far as smoke goes, live burn testing is conducted and our findings contradict what you say here. [quote/]



What I said is that incandescent have more range than LED's and that LED's are poor performers in fog or smoke.

These are facts, that anybody with an LED light can see by themselves, firefighters will be not caught dead with am LED on their hands in a fire.



RANGE:

I have a hydrant 88 yards from my front door, with a state of the art 130 lumens LED light that I have (McGizmo 3 watts PR T), I can barely see that it is there, and is all fuzzy and dark, however if I use an Ultra Stinger I can see it much better and see the details, if using the Bear Cub with its more intense white light, I can see the hydrant even better.



Watchmaker
 

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watchmaker said:
Robert said:
Watchmaker,



I need to correct you on Streamlight. Numbers are not inflated, if anything we underrate them. Streamlight actually has a light range in their facility and more engineers on staff that design & develop lights than any other manufacturer. Streamlight is currently working to develop a Standard by which all lights are to be measured (easier said than done) as evey mfg. does it differently. One thing you fail to mention about our Ultra stinger is that it can be focused as can be the Scorpion. As far as smoke goes, live burn testing is conducted and our findings contradict what you say here. Many more details than can use words to describe but one must test under the these conditions. Customers need all the details.







watchmaker said:
EMTCOP.

I haven't yet get one for testing, so I will reserve commentary, but those 130 lumens are LED, so it will not be as the same lumens throw by a Surefire 6P with P-61 lamp (120 lumens).

Incandescent will always have farther reach and will show detail better at a distance, and will penetrate better in fog or smoke conditions.



Watchmaker






Streamlight is currently working to develop a Standard by which all lights are to be measured (easier said than done) as evey mfg. does it differently.[quote/]



What is wrong with sticking the whole flashlight into an Integrated Sphere spectotometer, like Surefire does? It will give you the "torch" lumens value, instead of the "bulb" lumens that you are using, now. As you may know, the bulb lumens is higher because it does not take into account the loses from reflector and from reflection of the lens.



As far as smoke goes, live burn testing is conducted and our findings contradict what you say here. [quote/]



What I said is that incandescent have more range than LED's and that LED's are poor performers in fog or smoke.

These are facts, that anybody with an LED light can see by themselves, firefighters will be not caught dead with am LED on their hands in a fire.



RANGE:

I have a hydrant 88 yards from my front door, with a state of the art 130 lumens LED light that I have (McGizmo 3 watts PR T), I can barely see that it is there, and is all fuzzy and dark, however if I use an Ultra Stinger I can see it much better and see the details, if using the Bear Cub with its more intense white light, I can see the hydrant even better.



Watchmaker


Have you ever tested in a fire? I have, please don't speak about situtations you have not experienced, it could be bad to mis-inform folks.

88 yards is hardly a controlled light range.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Robert,

You will be surprised how intense are my test on gadgets, I will be waiting to hear from the test that you say are conducted on your place of work, include pictures too, till now you haven't provided any proof of anything.

Watchmaker
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hi guys,

I did this piece for a hunting forum, but any of those two will make a good car's light.



TWO, BLOOD TRACKING LIGHTS

BEAR CUB 220 LUMENS AND SUREFIRE M-4, 225 LUMENS



Hi guys,

I am the official tracker for our little group of seven bow hunters. Because of the small patch of private woods that we have for hunting, and to preserve the unpolluted area, all tracking is done only after dark when the hunt is over.

Our rules are that no more than two persons will retrieve the deer; this is to keep the woods as free of human odor as possible, not to spoil our chances for the next morning hunt.



I have had a lot of experience with blood tracking lights, since my father first taught me how to do it with the old gas Coleman lantern.

One thing that the old timers had right was the need for intense WHITE light. As time change, there was not need anymore to go back to the truck for the old lantern; the new crop of intense white light pioneered by the tactical lights used for SWAT and Special Forces can do the job of making that blood trail as clear as during the day.



At this point, a word about the blue lights now in use for this task, and is that in many situations they are completely useless, as I learned when I tested one of them by following a wounded bear in the Maine woods in late August. The black drop of blood blended so well with the dark green vegetation of the Maine woods, that it was impossible to track it using that light.

BLUE LIGHT









WHITE LIGHT









I am a flashaholic, a disease that is kept in check only by buying and using lights, as I own more than two hundred of them; I am well aware what is good and for what purpose. That is why I am telling my readers that for blood tracking you need a very intense white light of not less than 200 lumens.

That figure rules out LED lights, not only they don’t make the grade in lumens output, they are poor penetrators in fog and are poor distance throwers.

Enter high output incandescent lights with good throw.

Not many of them out there, Surefire for sure was the pioneer with the M-4 and the M-6 lights; the M-6 with the 350 lumens lamp can run for 60 minutes, but it uses six of the expensive 123’s batteries, costing $12 per hour run. The M-4 with the 225 lumens lamp is what I have used for years with satisfaction, except for the cost of $8 per hour, as some tracking jobs sometimes took more than 60 minutes.



THE SUREFIRE M-4 AND THE RECHARGEABLE BEAR CUB









The M-4 is 9 inches long and quite light in weight, it have a stippled reflector that diffuses the light into a flood, which in my opinion is more flood than it is needed, I would like to see this light marketed with a smooth reflector for more useable throw, as sometimes the wounded deer circle back toward the open fields, and to spot one lying dead in the middle of the field more throw is needed.

For more about the Surefire M-4 ($330) contact Surefire.



BEAMSHOTS FROM 26 YARDS, CAMERA AT 12 FEET FROM DEER



BEAMSHOT OF THE SUREFIRE M-4









The rechargeable Bear Cub is made by Black Bear Flashlights; it uses two state of the art Lithium Ion rechargeable batteries for 90 minutes run time outputting 220 lumens. This light is made

using the “host” of a maglite 2 C, which means than after years of hard use when the light is scratched or dented, you can renew it just by buying a new “host” for about $14.00.

The light is also 9 inches long, it has a smooth reflector that concentrates the beam and shoots it a long way, no problem with this light in spotting a dead deer in the middle of the field. The light is sold with a Li Ion charger that will charge the batteries in 3 ½ hours, so it is no problem to have it ready for the next morning, fully charged. These batteries last for 1,000 recharges so you have 1500 hours of use before needing another set of batteries. Before the M-4 can run for 1500 hours it will have spend $12,000 in batteries!

Extra lightweight Lithium Ion rechargeable batteries cost $30 per pair, so carrying an extra pair in a pocket will give you another 90 minutes of white intense tracking light.

When these lights are not used for tracking they make a formidable tactical light for home defense, with the capability of momentarily blinding an opponent.

The Bear Cub is available from the maker for $130 shipped, for more about this light contact Black Bear Flashlights.



BEAMSHOT OF THE BEAR CUB











Both of these lights will beat handily a 250,000 lumens spotlight; they are very convenient to carry in a pack or fanny-pack or even a large pocket. I use a red light to enter the woods without polluting them with light; I make a habit of always carrying my Bear Cub in my pack, ready for the most important chore of the hunting season, the retrieval of a wounded deer. I think that is our obligation to the game to make our best efforts to retrieve the deer we shoot, the use of the proper tool for tracking blood is imperative to aid in such efforts.



All the best

Watchmaker
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
DEAL EXTREME VERSUS P-60 LAMP

FOR SUREFIRE TWO CELLS



A while ago I bought one of the Deal Extreme new Cree lamps advertised to fit the Surefires for two cells, like in the 6P, G-2, Z-2, C-2 etc.



Yesterday I installed it in a Surefire G-2 (the yellow one). The fit is not exactly perfect, as you can see in the picture, the lamp is a little longer than necessary and the bezel doesn’t close all the way, like in the green G-2.

I guess I can fix the gap by instating an O ring, a trip to Home Depot to get one in necessary.









Inside the house, at short range the output is considerable; I think that at the short distance inside the house I will prefer it over the P-60 lamp.

Outside, the P-60 lamp is giving me more range and more picture detail up to maybe 45 yards, at my usual range of 26 yards (where I test all my lights against the deer head) I will say that they both go head to head, as you may see in the pictures in the general illumination department, BUT the definition of the foliage to the right of the tree (at the height of the posted sign) is better with the P-60 incandescent lamp.











Many G-2’s gets to be mounted in carbines like the M-4 or M-16, I have people ask me if I will use the Deal Extreme lamp in them, (As they suppose to resist recoil better), well, no, I still prefer the P-60 lamp for the extended range and even better the P-61 lamp for the increase brightness and coverage with their 120 lumens.



G=2 WITH DEAL EXTREME, RANGE 26 YARDS, CAMERA 12 FEET.









G-2 WITH P-60 LAMP











Any way it is not recoil that break filament lamps, but it is the vibration of many rounds while the filament is very hot, that explain why during the 1920’s and to the 60’s tigers were hunted from machans using regular 2 and 3 D flashlights clamped to the barrel in powerful rifles like the 470 Nitro Express, without any trouble with the bulbs. It seems that one or two shots, will not affect the filament, no matter how much the recoil is.

After all the filament is very lightweight and the inertia is just not there, because the lack of real weight.



All the best
 

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Have you looked at the Fenix L2D CE? It is advertised at 135 lumens. They have a new one that uses the Rebel LED advertised a 175 lumens. I agree that there should be one way to test light output. Example: I have a Inova T4 advertised at 100 lumens that is beat by a Coast Tactical advertised at 65 lumens and is pretty close to a Rayovac 3W advertised at 80 lumens. Of course my Fenix beats them all, including my 4D Mag w/LED.



Even with some of the advantages of incandescents, I still prefer LED. I think I may have to look into some of Streamlight's products. I'm not a fan of Surefire, due to their poor LED selection and output. Maybe they will start getting some better LED models in. In my opinion, as far as LED lights go, the only advantage Surefire has over other manufacturers is that they are built extremely reliable and tough. I know Coast will have a new Cree lineup early next year and I'm anxious to see what they will have to offer.
 
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