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I, as you all know have recently been bitten by the gun bug. Everything I own is less than 5 months old, to include a Savage Arms LE .308 with a 20" heavy barrel and a folding Choate stock. For glass I choose the Super Sniper 10x42 and to hold it up a Harris SLM 6-9 bi-pod. Now let's bounce back a few years and its safe to say a few :wink: . I have always been taught how to shoot with an M16 and their variations. I have used iron sights for over 19 years and very comfortable with them out to 300m. However, with a scope I am having some issues, thus the root of the story. I zero at 25m, with a .25 MOA move out 100m and adjust, but still shoot decent; move me out to 200m and I can't hit the broad side of a barn. I was tearing up my 200m targets with M&P15A with a Aimpoint 3xMag, but still, when I have a precision rifle you would think I could do better. I simply do not understand what I am doing wrong. Savage is famous for their accuracy, but I think this weapon is seriously out shooting me, any suggestions?



 

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Man, I really want one of those 20" barreled 10FPs.

Ok some questions:



1)what are you shooting through it? If you want good accuracy, you have to feed it good ammo. Handloads are best. THe 24" savage 10FPs seem to like 168gr and 175gr match kings.



surplus 147gr surplus REALLy tends to not be acccurate out of the savage bolt guns.



2) .223 is a more convenient cartidge for figuring a good working zero, you can't use the instructions given for an effective zeroing of an AR for zeroing your .308 bolt gun. A good working zero is 200 yards. With a good scope, you come back 2MOA for 100 yards and under, 3MOA up for 300 yards, and 13MOa for 600 yards. It's not liek a 16" AR with 62gr ammo where you can zero at 50 yards and be good to go from muzzle to 200 yards with a heads worth of holdover at 300.



3)How big's your barn? If your ammo isn't doing something stupid, you should be able to get it on a 12"x12" target at 200 even with only a 25 yard zero. Technically you should be shooting a little high, but only a few inches. Youd probably be missing clay pigeons a lot, but not a nice big



4) Who put your scope on, and how much experience do they have? Canting makes a huge difference, and even if you arent, if your scope isn't leve, it is. Your reticle has to be square to the bore and gravity. Otherwise anything using holdover gets all screwey.



5) How rigid is that stock? Bad cheek welds cause parrallax issues. Which can have you missing by a LOT. Come to think of it, a consistant cheek weld may be your most likely culprit as red dots have minimal parrallax error, and the AR design prevents a wobbly stock.



REally we need more info to be of help
 

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Seriously, raz-0 I will try to answer your question with some of my own...

raz-0 said:
Man, I really want one of those 20" barreled 10FPs.

Ok some questions:



1)what are you shooting through it? If you want good accuracy, you have to feed it good ammo. Handloads are best. THe 24" savage 10FPs seem to like 168gr and 175gr match kings.



I am using whatever Walmart has to sell, normally a 308 Winchester Super-X Centerfire Rifle Cartridge, 180-Grain Power-Point Bullet, 2620 fps. Thats what I used today.




surplus 147gr surplus REALLy tends to not be acccurate out of the savage bolt guns.



2) .223 is a more convenient cartidge for figuring a good working zero, you can't use the instructions given for an effective zeroing of an AR for zeroing your .308 bolt gun. A good working zero is 200 yards. With a good scope, you come back 2MOA for 100 yards and under, 3MOA up for 300 yards, and 13MOa for 600 yards. It's not liek a 16" AR with 62gr ammo where you can zero at 50 yards and be good to go from muzzle to 200 yards with a heads worth of holdover at 300.



I understand that 100%



3)How big's your barn? If your ammo isn't doing something stupid, you should be able to get it on a 12"x12" target at 200 even with only a 25 yard zero. Technically you should be shooting a little high, but only a few inches. Youd probably be missing clay pigeons a lot, but not a nice big



The barn is within the 12x12, actually a 8.5 x10.5 sheet of paper. I was actually shooting very high in the beginning, did a few click's down and all hell broke loose. From that point on, I shoot low left, low right center right, this is were I thought I was on target. However, when I changed targets out, I was completely off my original zero and I began to get really frustrated.



4) Who put your scope on, and how much experience do they have? Canting makes a huge difference, and even if you arent, if your scope isn't leve, it is. Your reticle has to be square to the bore and gravity. Otherwise anything using holdover gets all screwey.



I mounted my scope, with (yes I know) a simple bubble level at the house. To me it looks level and my reticle is mil-dot, so every thing is lined up well.



5) How rigid is that stock? Bad cheek welds cause parrallax issues. Which can have you missing by a LOT. Come to think of it, a consistant cheek weld may be your most likely culprit as red dots have minimal parrallax error, and the AR design prevents a wobbly stock.



The stock has issues, I like the pistol grip design, but the folding option is useless. It also has a tendency to almost bend, and I have to re-adjust my sight picture. I wrote to SA, but haven't received any feedback about their stock issue. SA is NOT as proficient as S&W with customer support.



REally we need more info to be of help


Thanks brother you are whether you know it not helping me diagnose this issue very well, so keep asking questions...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Anyone?
 

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I don't know if HS Precision makes a stock for the Savage but here is a link

http://www.hsprecision.com/new_tactical_stocks.htm



I had a Savage 10 FP in 308 and did not like the rifle at all, seemed very sloppy. I hear if you replace the trigger system with a Timminey Trigger system or Canjar triggers you will get improvements, never bothered , sold mine and picked a Remington 700 PSS with 20" flutted BBL. Also what type of scope do you have? Base and rings? Did you loctite screws?



I always break my rifles in with JB bore bright. 1st cold shot then clean bore with JB, I do this for the first 10 rounds and I let the BBL cool after each shot.



Also may not be bedded properly, might want to consider sending it out, I believe Mcmillan does this work also.



http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan/index.asp



Here is another link to some very valuable information





http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/HotCold.htm



Also have you fired from a more stable platform than the Bipod? ie sandbag rest? hard to tell whats going on without seeing it in person but hope some of this info helps. My suggestion first would be to get rid of that stock and get a conventional tactical stock with adjustable LOP and cheek piece and a nice wide bedded forearm.
 

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I have shot many bolt action Savages. None of them were sloppy. All of them were very accurate, quality rifles.



The Savage Accutrigger is the best factory trigger I have pulled.



I think the barrel is free floating with the Choate stock.
 

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Your inaccuracy is probably caused by one or more of the following:



1. Your scope, your scope mount, or not being mounted right.

2. The stock. I'm not familiar with the folding mechanism of that stock, but it needs to be rock solid.

3. Ammo. You need to try several different loads.



I would take the bipod off of it for now. Use a very steady rest to get it zeroed. (Sandbags or something very steady.)
 

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Morgan Walker said:
Seriously, raz-0 I will try to answer your question with some of my own...

[quote name='raz-0']

1)what are you shooting through it? If you want good accuracy, you have to feed it good ammo. Handloads are best. THe 24" savage 10FPs seem to like 168gr and 175gr match kings.



I am using whatever Walmart has to sell, normally a 308 Winchester Super-X Centerfire Rifle Cartridge, 180-Grain Power-Point Bullet, 2620 fps. Thats what I used today.
[/quote]



Ok, powerpoint isn't the most accurate bullet shape. BUt this helps. That round, should be 2620 out the muzzle, but my best guess is that is a 24" test barrel, even if winchester doesn't state barrel length. Applying the general rule that you lose about 50fps per inch of barrel to guestimate, this is what you should expect to be in the neighborhood of.



at 25 yards you should be dead on. About 1 inch high at 50, about 2.5 inches high at 100, half an inch low at 200, and about 11 inches low at 300.



That's in a perfect world with some rounding error.



3)How big's your barn? If your ammo isn't doing something stupid, you should be able to get it on a 12"x12" target at 200 even with only a 25 yard zero. Technically you should be shooting a little high, but only a few inches. Youd probably be missing clay pigeons a lot, but not a nice big



The barn is within the 12x12, actually a 8.5 x10.5 sheet of paper. I was actually shooting very high in the beginning, did a few click's down and all hell broke loose. From that point on, I shoot low left, low right center right, this is were I thought I was on target. However, when I changed targets out, I was completely off my original zero and I began to get really frustrated.


Ok, this starts to make sense. Tell me if anything I say is an inaccurate interpretation of your statements. also correct any assumptions about your gear that are wrong.



You zero at 25m You are pretty on, at least to the point where you'll accept it as you being less than rock solid.



At 100m you are grouping, but you are hitting high. This is normal as you zeroed at 25 yards. It might be extra high due to parrallax when you sighted it in at 25 yards.

(the 10x42 has a focus ring that should mitigate parrallax, but nothng is perfect. It just reduces it greatly). at 100 it is parrllax free, so you may not be seeing some additional error here. You adjust your zero down a few clicks, so now....



At 200 yards where you would have been down about -0.6 inches with your 25 yard zero, you are now down about 3 inches if you got your 100 yard shots roughly zeroed.



And that is if your windage is dead on.



If you want to make sure you are getting minimal parrallax error, you need to set your diopter correctly.



For the following MAKE SURE THE GUN IS UNLOADED and safe. You can even remove the bolt to do this for utmost safety.



Take the scope and the rifle, and get in a realistic shooting position for how you intend to use it facing a blank light colored wall. Adjust the focus (if it has it) to infinity.



Adjust the diopter setting until the reticle is blurry.



Mount the rifle as if youw ere really going to take a shot, and close your eyes. Open them and tyr to focus on the reticle quickly (less than a second). If you can't get it (which you shouldn't first time), adjust the diopter slightly. When you get close, the qpeeed with which you can focus your eyes is important as your eyes can compensate for a slightly off diopter setting with time and effort. What you want is an instantly sharp reticle without your eyes doing any work. Repeat the snap focus, and adjust step until you have this.



4) Who put your scope on, and how much experience do they have? Canting makes a huge difference, and even if you arent, if your scope isn't leve, it is. Your reticle has to be square to the bore and gravity. Otherwise anything using holdover gets all screwey.



I mounted my scope, with (yes I know) a simple bubble level at the house. To me it looks level and my reticle is mil-dot, so every thing is lined up well.




I highly recommend a vise, the below linked reticle leveler, and a flashlight for getting your scope on square. (the markII version with the level in it)



http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...RETICLE+LEVELER



If you want more detailed tips on this, let me know. I'm going on vacation, so i might not get back to you for a while, and PMing me to respond to the threa might be useful.



also, to judge a scope as not the source of problems, you can always box it and see if it returns to zero, evne if that zero isn't exactly where you want it. In this case, you aren't there yet.



5) How rigid is that stock? Bad cheek welds cause parrallax issues. Which can have you missing by a LOT. Come to think of it, a consistant cheek weld may be your most likely culprit as red dots have minimal parrallax error, and the AR design prevents a wobbly stock.



The stock has issues, I like the pistol grip design, but the folding option is useless. It also has a tendency to almost bend, and I have to re-adjust my sight picture. I wrote to SA, but haven't received any feedback about their stock issue. SA is NOT as proficient as S&W with customer support.


If my above judgements sound realistic, this is your problem. You aren't getting a good cheek weld. Wither you are being inconsistent, the stock is, or worst of all both. You need to practice getting a clean cheek weld you can reproduce even if it isn't something comfortable until you have this sorted. bipod flex could also be contributing to this as yukonglocker stated.



This is likely moving your POI vs POA relationship even if you have it focused properly.



NOTHING is parralax free with a big enough hmovements in where your pupil is vs the center of the aiming device. Well except maybe old school WWII wire crosshair sights on AA cannons.







Thanks brother you are whether you know it not helping me diagnose this issue very well, so keep asking questions...


No problem, I'd also heed yukonglocker's suggestion of tryign different ammo. If 25 yards to 300 yards is going to be where you do most of your shooting, a 168gr bullet with higher velocity and a match more aerodynamic bullet will have much friendlier ballistics.
 

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I'll give them all a try this weekend, I really appreciate the help. I will keep you all posted, thanks again.
 
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