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Discussion Starter #1
I've been browsing around the forum a bit today and noticed a few folks mention having a low POI issue. I recently aquired a M&P40 and a M&P9c. With the compact, I can drill a group about the size of a quarter at POA with ease out to 7 yds off hand (the group opens up a bit past there...). With the full size however, I'm hitting about 2 inches below POA using CCI Speer clean fire practice ammo (not sure what grain it is off the top of my head). I'm not opposed to the idea of it being operator error (jerking the trigger, limp wristing) but I'm aware of those issues and have very consciously made sure to eliminate them from the list. Also, with the performance difference between the two, I would think that would help narrow down the possibilities. Anyway, it boils down to this: Anyone else have this issue? Or is it just me and I need more practice? (that's really a given anyway...




Thanks!

MC
 

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It very well might possibly be a bullet weight issue. Try to use 180grain ammo with your M&P 40. I think there are WWB Valupaks in 180gr FMJ.
 

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You didn't mention what weight bullets you are shooting, that's an important piece of information.



Vertical impact point can vary tremendously depending on the weight of the bullets you are shooting, light bullets normally impact lower than heavier bullets, so the most likely cure would be heavier bullets.
 

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John -- I addressed this same point in another thread and asked if there might be a third party rear sight that has both windage AND elevation adjustments. I have two .22 handguns both of which have rear sights allowing for those adjustments. Yes, I shoot 115 gr. WWB9 from Walmart because of price and choose not to spend a lot more for practice ammo.



I understand the M&P is not a fine target weapon. I'd just like to be able to feel I'm hitting where I'm aiming at say 10 yards. I have no problem with either my S&W 617 or Buckmark .22's at that distance.



Any ideas on a rear sight for the M&P with elevation and windage adjustments or does this not exist? Thanks in advance.
 

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No such animal currently exists for the M&P.



If you plan on strictly using 115gr loads, another option would be to have a gunsmith shave down the front sight some to raise the POI for your load.



That said, there is no issue making good groups with the stock sights even with 115gr loads. Due to costs, I use 115gr loads during practice or plinking sessions. I have found that at 7 yards, the round will hit where the dot is, at 15 yards the top of the front site post and at 25 yards a tad below the front sight post.



http://mp-pistol.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=961



If you use 124 or 147 grain ammo for self defense, it will also be a good idea to run some to get an idea of where the POI lies in relation to the POA. I have found 147 grain ammo (which I use for defense) to hit at the top of the front sight post at 7 yards and ~25 yards. With all that said, the probability of shooting at those distances (15-25 yards) in a self defense situation are slim to none.
 

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I don't know what bullet weight the 9mm is designed for, but the 115 gr load is the most popular bullet weight in 9mm, I would think it would be regulated for that load, however sighting is an individual thing, and sights regulated for one person don't necessarily work for another, all the factory can do is "one size fits all" and that doesn't work for everyone.



Someone will come out with a fully adjustable sight at some point, but it may be a while.
 

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115gr is the most popular weight, however, 147 grain and 124 grain loads tend to be more prevalent for defensive loads (especially with LE agencies). S&W probably uses either 124 or 147 grain bullets to sight in the guns at the factory. At 7 yards, 147 grain (RA9T) will hit on the top of the front sight post with my M&Ps.
 

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Okay, thanks for all your replies on rear sights. I just recognize that I'm not alone on this issue and that's why I attached my question to another poster's question. I'll be trying to make my own adjustments during my next range session. On the off chance I ever need to shoot in a home defense situation, my two or three-inch low shots are still bound to hit my target. Down the line, I'll try some heavier bullet weights so I'll better know about that as a factor in my shooting.
 

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I picked up a box of WWB 147 gr. JHP rounds at Wal-Mart and did some comparative test firing with those along with firing my normal WWB 115 gr. target loads. The 147 gr. loads were about twice the price of the target loads. Surprise! There was no difference in the point of impact. Yet today, when firing from a sandbag rest, I was mostly in the black, unlike my last range session when I complained about shooting low. The few shots that were off target I'm sure I can attribute to bad shooting on my part. In fact, I pretty well called those shots and knew I was pulling off at the time I was trying to squeeze the trigger.



There are a few other threads on the forum that have asked the same questions (low left, low POI) and I'm convinced now that shooter error is the culprit. You experienced shooters are probably smiling. You were right.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Well, I finally looked at the box and I'm shooting 165gr .40 Gold Dot hollowpoints with the same results as my practice ammo. It may be operator error, I'm used to a DA/SA trigger so this trigger is new to me. I was just a bit thrown off by drilling the bullseye with my compact yet being low with my full size .40. I guess more practice is in order! (That is after I get my full size back from S&W for repairs...)



MC
 

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I believe that some M&P's shoot low. I have an M&P9 that has shot low since I've had it. I've tried 124gr, 147gr as well as 115gr ammo. By low, I mean 3" at 7 yards and 4"+ at 15 yards. I thought it was me, and managed to move the POI up by using the dot on the front sight as the aiming point. I also believe that some of the problem was the shooter but not all. If I shoot a consistent sight picture, I get consistent shot placement, just low.



I think the pistol is part of the problem. Reason: POI=POA when I shoot other handguns: .38 police special, hi-point .45, Walther PPK, CZ 9mm, Markarov, Ruger 9mm, Lugers, various 1911's and my GP100. As much as I like the M&P, mine simply shoots low. I've noticed that one of the fiber-optic makers have two front sight heights. Mine will go back to S&W this week for a check. If that doesn't fix the problem, I'll either take a file to the front sight or put it on the market and buy something that I can shoot.



When I bought it, I liked the M&P better than the XD or glock. Still like the way it shoots and groups. The M&P may simply be a pistol I can't shoot, or S&W had a few QC problems. Either way, I've about reached my point of maximum frustration with the my M&P.
 

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My M&P shoots low as well. Once you've determined how low it's shooting at a given distance, you can tell Speed Shooters Specialties and they'll make a custom front sight for you that should resolve the problem. Or, try calling S&W and telling them the problem. Perhaps they'll send out a new front sight.
 

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It's going back to S&W first. Then I will work on getting the right height front sight post. I seem to read enough posts about the pistols shooting low that I believe that there is a problem with the pistols. If ammo weight was so critical that the impact of the round would be 4-6" at 15 yards, S&W should print that in 30 point red type in the manual. I started with 124gr ammo, which shot low. I'm not at all happy about the idea of having to pay extra for a front sight that will get it to shoot where it is supposed to. Don't mind changing the sights to get it to shoot better. I have every confidence that S&W will address the problem.
 

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POI

Hi All,

Call Dawson about adjustable rear sight, they asked me if I wanted one the other day, don't know if they are ready but ask them.



In my .40 M&P I run 155g bullet it has the same POA-POI from 5yds through 30yds.



In the 9mm M&P, 147g run very well (flat shooting), 124g ran almost the same and the 115 UMC ran about an inch above POA through 25 yds.
 
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