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Discussion Starter #1
Here's my first ever internet prediction: at some point in time, perhaps sooner than any of us think, the M&P will surpass the Glock as the police pistol of choice. And, if the .45 is as slim through the grip as has been reported, we will see that caliber emerge as the caliber of choice for LEOs.



Here's my basis for these statements: S&W has addressed every flaw the Glock has i.e., the grip angle, having to complete a trigger press for field stripping (this has been a regular source of ND's), grip size, left-handed users/ambidextrous, fully-supported chamber, the ability to shoot lead (although who would want to), and overall ergonomics. Two things yet to be seen are whether S&W will provide the same high level of support as Glock and the long-term durability of the M&P design.



Now, for the caliber. If the .45 is sized anywhere near or below the grip size of a Glock 22, why would agencies stay with the .40? Recoil is arguably more tame in the .45 and most agree that a .45 is the better fight stopper. Magazine capacity would be somewhat reduced which, as Jeff Cooper has stated, is important if you plan on missing a lot.




Granted, S&W has a long row to hoe, but it appears they have fielded a great product. If nothing else, Glock is going to have to be a bit more responsive to customer input (such as requests for a full-sized single stack .45 - which I have read is in the works).



Disclaimer: I have a Glock 22 which works fine for me. And Glocks are fine as far as they go. The preceding statements are my opinion based on a fair amount of experience with firearms. YMMV.
 

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thought the XD was the glock killer lol....i visit many forums and i can tell you the M&P is not very popular as of yet anyway
but i think the compact should change this!!!
 

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The glock guys will be quick to tell you that the M&P is a glock copy and show you where they are identical. Doesn't bother me, when I decide to get this type of handgun, I tried the glock, XD and M&P. I liked the feel of the XD better than the glock and the M&P better than the XD. Think its a matter of personal preference.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I don't know. The XD feels okay, but the comparitively high bore axis is an issue, and other than a better feeling grip, the ergos (in my opinion) aren't there.



I agree that the M&P is similar to the Glock - to the extent they have taken the good things about the innards and used that combined with the other enhancements noted in the original post.



I will admit that marketing (and economics) plays a big part in what gets adopted by agencies. At this point, I think the market is S&W's to lose.
 

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Bring on the .45!!
:wink:
 

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greener said:
Think its a matter of personal preference.


Bingo.



That, plus the inertia Glock has built up with years of success. I asked they guy at the range/shop just two days ago how many M&Ps he was selling, the answer was "none", but he's a Glock guy. He had a full size M&P he tried to sell me, said it "felt real good, would make me a good deal" but I'm holding out for a compact .40.



It will take some time for the M&P to build its own reputation and get its own intertia thang going.



I hope it does - I believe it will.



:wink:
 

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One measure of success is how interested the Commercial Distributors are in a given firearm. I have talked to 7 and their buyers don't want to stock the M&P as it doesn't move for them (no orders, no sales, no profit). And these are the guys that provide what a gun store sells. However, they are taking the minimum amount as required by S&W....if they want to carry anything else from Smith.



With a chance to profile the M&P in front of two large LE agencies, I made calls and emails to the pertinent S&W representatives. My plan was to get the M&P and a version of the J-frame into the hands of sworn personnel in these two agencies. And where these agencies go for a gun is normally followed by every local department.



That was two months ago. I have yet to hear from a S&W rep.



In the last month I have seen two Glock reps and talked with their boss three times.



When I had a large agency ask me for help in getting all new guns, where do you think I directed them?



My agency carries something else, but in our upcoming review of that situation, where do you think I'll be looking?
 

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Kilroy, I think you have nailed S&W's marketing non-strategy. My son-in-law works in the gun department at a major sporting goods chain store, largely to support his ambition to have at least two of everything made it seems. When I asked his opinion about the High Point 9mm, he was lukewarm to postive. When I asked his opinion about the S&W the nicest thing he said about it was "remade sigma POS, keeping all the bad ideas." He is a guy people will wait until he is working to decide which one to buy. I don't believe he has ever fired an M&P, but Smith hasn't done anything to get folks like him into their camp.



Frankly, if you had been out on the range with me this morning Glock would be the last brand to buy. Lot's of rounds an very few holes in paper, all from Glocks. Probably says more about the shooters and not the pistols, but all I could see was that the glocks fired fast and had an aversion to paper. (Would have loved to have the ammunition concession at that range this morning, a couple of them fired more .40 and .45 rounds than I fired .22).
 

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Iam a former glock owner 2 17

I have shot the xd v comp in .40 in direct comparasion of the m&p

12 rounds to 15 and you be damn lucking to get 12 rounds in the xd mag

xd recoil less than the m&p but it was compensated also the xd had 3 ftf

m&p none

glocks are reliable pistols just dont fit right in my hand

M&P has the best trigger pull from the box .

YOU want better polish the firng plunger safty and trigger bar and its close to perfect in my opinion. exept for sending it to dan.

The M&P is taking the best from the best glock mechanics with a sig take down with sigma series egernomics.

just my 2 bits







:wink:
 

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I've had my M&P9 for a week. It's been to the range 3 times. I think it uncovered a shooting flaw I had, or it's doing better as it breaks in. The first two times it wanted to shoot consistently low and left. I did some meditation on my trigger technique and removed most of the low and and some left yesterday. I'm now at about 400 rounds. Mine liked WWB 115 gr better than Fioochi 124gr combat loads. 17 rounds in the mags, no FTF, no ejection problems. Put a round in the mag, put the mag in the pistol, rack the slide, pull the trigger and it goes bang. If you have two rounds in the mag, it will go bang the next time you pull the tigger. The only problem I've had with the M&P is my 1/16 allen wrench doesn't want to move the set screw in the rear sight. The M&P and I don't shoot as well as I would like, but was able to obliterate a 3" area in a target yesterday.



It was too windy to chase bass this morning so I took my rimfires to another range. I shot better at 25 yards with open sights than I have for quite some time. I had to adjust the rear sights to move POI down and left. The M&P may have forced me to catch a consistent problem. (I haven't shot pistol much, if any, in a couple of decades and started with rimfires with adjustable sights).
 

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Discussion Starter #11
It is disappointing to here S&W's lack of responsiveness to the marketplace. It does little good to have a terrific product if no one knows about it. S&W has, I think, a winner in the M&P. Now if they can step-up and make folks want to buy their product.



Roger that re: inertia. Aside from issues with the actual pistols that have already been mentioned, Glocks' achilles heel may be the whole "Perfection" pitch. Refusing to call a recall and instead call it an "upgrade" insults me as a consumer.



Again, the market is S&W's to lose. Hey, maybe they would put *me* on the payroll. They would need, of course, to equip me with two each of every M&P model and unlimited ammo...
 

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The M&P is a great gun and from the little news we've had on the history of the gun, it seems S&W got inputs from end users to design it. Good show.



I've shot the guns in 9mm and .40 and the design does work. They could improve on the uniformity of the Melonite finish, as some on this forum have noted swirls on some areas of the slide. Not a functional issue, but since we're all paying decent money for the gun (at whatever price its selling for) it would be great to have this issue resolved.



Will it displace Glock? Only time will tell.



The Glocks work often enough, but more importantly, they have their marketing game down pat. "Perfection?" Hardly, but they know which markets to guard jealously. Since the brass makes the purchasing decisions, I don't think Glock will give up without a good fight.



Curiously, I believed Glock was in a position not just to dominate but to innovate. After all, they were the first to get a polymer framed pistol adopted by so many entities across the globe, in an era where steel was still the name of the game.



Twenty years into their sojourn, I expected them to keep their hold on the spear's tip by making frames that were anatomically adjustable, more rounded, etc.. Installing better sights (non-polymer) would have been great as well. Considering the plastic frame may be the cheapest component of the pistol, I don't think a redesign would have hurt them much, especially if it sealed the deal as far as their dominance was concerned.



Yet, they left this gap wide open and so we have other players coming in, with good entries to boot. The M&P is one, and I doubt it will be the last.



My personal M&P's are on the way, and if the office sees the light, I hope they'll cast their votes for Smith & Wesson. Til then, I'll have to ride with my G17 and save the M&P for my own time. I think this will be the case for a few years.
 

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Greener, Your son in law is about as wrong as it gets on the subject of the M&P and sigma relationship. It'd be nice if more people would do esearch before opening their mouths. jsut comparing the two exploded diagrams will demonstrate that the method of operation is vastly different. Perhaps you should do the proper father-in-law thing and bust his balls some




Killroy, what neck of the woods are you in? At least in NJ, S&W had been making some efforts. Doing some armorers training and other basics. Definitely a fair ammount of cash to be spent that isn't owned by a particular brand. Lots of brand shopping goes on to convince the bean counters to pay for new guns, so departments often change brands. However, the timing is dead wrong for most departments I'm familliar with as it's far too soon for new mass-purchasing.



Honestly, the product isn't even out a year. I don't think S&W was properly prepared to push the product in every market, which is a practical limitation. I think the joint forces pistol competition biting it was a big bump in the road for their plans.
 

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Timing for marketing a replacement duty pistol isn't that great either. Many departments upgraded repost 9-11 so they are using newer equipment currently. IMHO, it will be a few years before you see "mass buys" like we did over the past few years. That's actually good news since it will give the platform time to mature and reliability to be proven by the early adopters.



MI_Jester
 

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MI_Jester said:
Timing for marketing a replacement duty pistol isn't that great either. Many departments upgraded repost 9-11 so they are using newer equipment currently. IMHO, it will be a few years before you see "mass buys" like we did over the past few years. That's actually good news since it will give the platform time to mature and reliability to be proven by the early adopters.



MI_Jester


I fully agree Jester. That is one of the reasons the stock will be going up for quite awile. Many sales predicted for the future.
 

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I think it could be the Glock killer. I've been a diehard Glock guy. I shot a borrowed M&P 40 last weekend in a local match and now some of my Glocks are on the chopping block to make room for a few M&P's on the way. It'll take a big named shooter switching and winning in pistol matches to convert some people. S&W has the sigma to live down also.
 

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I don't think the M&P will ever exceed Glock's current control over the market. There are now too many polymer choices on the market for any one pistol to dominate.



I do, however, think the M&P will push Glock back into a state of development. Glock was the only kid on the block for awhile, but now the XD and the M&P have come along and started the game of polymer one-ups-manship. Competition is the last thing that Glock wanted to see, because now they will have to pour some additional money into Research and Development to keep their portion of the market.



The winner in this deal, is of course, us. With the introduction of outstanding new products like the M&P, market share will be more important than ever.



S&W needs to get off their thumbs and start marketing, however. A portion of the Glock's stigma is the torture test. I'd like to see the M&P put through similar torture tests, but I'm certainly not volunteering my pistol.



Stay away from my M&P.



Thanks to S&W for a great weapon.
 

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When i told my buddy i was getting the compact, his first words were are u going to sell ur gun? lol, this is the first time he has ever talked about buying a "plastic" gun. He is a die hard 1911 and revolver fan, that has said he will never own a "plastic" gun ever.



I think the m&p just has that affect on people, but its going to take time. i would love to see that torture test video that was produced speaking of which. Im pretty sure next year when the .45 comes out, i'll see him popping up with one and no doubt i will also.



i can see it honestly taking years for the m&p to start knocking glocks out until glock gets smart and fires back with the M&P killer.
 

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When i told my buddy i was getting the compact, his first words were are u going to sell ur gun? lol


I had something similar happen. I showed mine to a guy that I'm friends with that runs a local general store. He is a big firearms enthusiast. His reaction was identical to mine when he picked it up. "WOW - This thing really fits in the hand well!."



He had one a week later.
 

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M&P has come a long way in one year, but still has a long way to go.



Threatening the Glock isn't in the air yet, but I believe the XD will be within sight soon.



Popularity is limited right now, with Smiths reputation on the sigma trigger, past clinton dealings and so on, it takes an open minded, or a person that has no past knowledge with those things to give it a chance.



What is hurting the most are the dealers that don't know the pistol, and keep reccomending glock, mainly because that is all they know, and above points.



I will say that if glock doesn't get off their can, HS2000(XD) and the M&P will be taking alot of their market in the US. Smith is going to have a very hard time marketing outside the US though, HK, and Glock pretty much have the market tied there.





It is an exciting time to be in the "Fighting Pistol" world.
 
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