Barrels don't just blow up. What was done to them?
Or do you mean lugs shearing off or what?
Or do you mean lugs shearing off or what?
M&P Rental Performance
We have had our M&P pistols for a little over a year. We have the 9mm & .40S&W in both fullsize and compact. The compacts are newer, and have not yet seen a full year of use.
These pistols have seen well over 10,000 rounds of use through each. They are typically cleaned once a week (or so) in an ultrasonic tank (slides and barrels, not frames).
We have seen 2 fullsize .40S&W's blow up. Both had cracked barrels, both frames broke forward of the roll pin near the disassembly lever. The crack went down and took off half of the trigger guard with it.
The fullsize 9mm has a broken extractor pin (the little pin visable from the underside of the slide, going up through the top). It still runs, but needs to be knocked back flush with the underside of the slide on each cleaning. It will get fixed at some point.
The compact 9mm is just now dropping its magazine on almost every shot. It ran fine for months, but now drops the mag more often than not.
Everything has a service life, and things will break. However, our 9mm/.40S&W Glocks have run for just as long, see more rounds through them, and have only seen a broken trigger return spring here or there, and a cracked barrel on a 23c. The XD's have run well also, although 1 of them (5 total) had a barrel lug get chipped.
I hope S&W figures out how to make their gun as robust as Glock has made theirs, but it's not there yet.
These pistols have seen well over 10,000 rounds of use through each. They are typically cleaned once a week (or so) in an ultrasonic tank (slides and barrels, not frames).
We have seen 2 fullsize .40S&W's blow up. Both had cracked barrels, both frames broke forward of the roll pin near the disassembly lever. The crack went down and took off half of the trigger guard with it.
The fullsize 9mm has a broken extractor pin (the little pin visable from the underside of the slide, going up through the top). It still runs, but needs to be knocked back flush with the underside of the slide on each cleaning. It will get fixed at some point.
The compact 9mm is just now dropping its magazine on almost every shot. It ran fine for months, but now drops the mag more often than not.
Everything has a service life, and things will break. However, our 9mm/.40S&W Glocks have run for just as long, see more rounds through them, and have only seen a broken trigger return spring here or there, and a cracked barrel on a 23c. The XD's have run well also, although 1 of them (5 total) had a barrel lug get chipped.
I hope S&W figures out how to make their gun as robust as Glock has made theirs, but it's not there yet.
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Nope, they blew up. I watched it happen on the second incident.
Shooter checked in and loaded magazine. Took the first shot, shot hit the paper target (not squib). Took the second shot, half of the gun blew off. I came over, cleared and took the gun, made sure shooter was ok.
Barrel was cracked from just forward of the chamber all the way to the muzzle. The front half of the frame flew forward about 6', cracked where I mentioned it did.
I watched the only 2 shots that went through that gun (edit: <- on that particular range session). So, unless the barrel cracked before, and was put away with no-one noticing it....it happened while I watched it. The shooter had JUST started shooting, had a fresh target, and I watched him place both shots on the target.
Shooter checked in and loaded magazine. Took the first shot, shot hit the paper target (not squib). Took the second shot, half of the gun blew off. I came over, cleared and took the gun, made sure shooter was ok.
Barrel was cracked from just forward of the chamber all the way to the muzzle. The front half of the frame flew forward about 6', cracked where I mentioned it did.
I watched the only 2 shots that went through that gun (edit: <- on that particular range session). So, unless the barrel cracked before, and was put away with no-one noticing it....it happened while I watched it. The shooter had JUST started shooting, had a fresh target, and I watched him place both shots on the target.
pics? digital cameras are cheaper than guns im sure you have one right... :wink:
Ammo? Brand, bullet weight, bullet style. Factory fresh or reload?
Sorry, but I'm with raz ... barrels don't just spontaneously blow up. You have a gun that has successfully handled the pressure of firing multiple times. Then just all of the sudden it suffers that catastrophic a failure? Nope, I don't buy it.
Sorry, but I'm with raz ... barrels don't just spontaneously blow up. You have a gun that has successfully handled the pressure of firing multiple times. Then just all of the sudden it suffers that catastrophic a failure? Nope, I don't buy it.
Already been sent back, you can't make money renting a broken gun. :wink:darklyte24 said:pics? digital cameras are cheaper than guns im sure you have one right... :wink:
Don't belive it if you don't want to. Why I posted this, and what I'm waiting for, is to see who else has had their gun break in the same place. We had two go in the same spot...it is a weak point in the gun.
Ammo was remington. I cut the case open, I watched the customer load the mag from the box (only shooter on the range).
The same thing happened to our USP .40 compact...I wasn't there when it blew, so it could have been a squib on that one...I just saw the pieces come off the range. The frame on that went forward of the slide-stop pin, only the plastic held on the trigger guard.
.40 is a high pressure round...guns blow up. I've personally seen the aftermath on a USP .40 compact, a Kahr PM-40, a G23C, and the M&P 40. All .40's...I've yet to see a 9mm blow up.
I don't get anything out of lying about this...I have the 9mm myself and have no reason to sh*t-talk the M&P. I posted how are rentals are performing, that's it.
That's too bad. Might have reached its life either sooner or prematurely? Hope S&W should consider this too carefully, in addition to the other issues, and correct what needs to be for future batches.
Synergy, can you post some pictures and the ammo load used? Just for reference, hoping too it doesn't happen too soon with ours. Thanks.
Synergy, can you post some pictures and the ammo load used? Just for reference, hoping too it doesn't happen too soon with ours. Thanks.
sherpa said:That's too bad. Might have reached its life either sooner or prematurely? Hope S&W should consider this too carefully, in addition to the other issues, and correct what needs to be for future batches.
Synergy, can you post some pictures and the ammo load used? Just for reference, hoping too it doesn't happen too soon with ours. Thanks.
Ammo was regular 180gr Remington UMC FMJ. I don't have pics...I can photoshop a picture to show where the frame broke off...but I didn't take pics of it. I've seen a half dozen guns blow up in the last year or so...I don't really get too excited about it. We boxed it up and sent it back that day.
I'm sure S&W will get us a replacement quickly...that is one thing they do VERY well.
Being that both guns broke in the same spot...it looks like that is the weak link in the chain. I'm sure other guns will turn up in time with the same problem. I just wish I noted whether or not this .40 was a "N" Rev or not.
Like I said, I like these guns a lot, and I think they have a lot of features that give them an edge over other guns. However, it looks like their long-term durability might not be the best.
Thanks. I also misread your whole 1st message and thought it also happened to the 9mm, glad they didn't. With this, I'm suspecting a similar KB! issue as with some .40 glocks. Could be lack of full case support in the critical area over the feed ramp, some because of overpressure reloads or those with brittled brass, though the latter might not be the case since you might be using factory loads. Anyhow, I've been reading the KB! is predominant with .40 and larger caliber, but who knows if it might also happen with 9mm. Hope not
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Sure hope S&W takes a look at this immediately.
synergy, it would be nice to see a mock-up of how and where it broke off. Thanks.
Sure hope S&W takes a look at this immediately.
synergy, it would be nice to see a mock-up of how and where it broke off. Thanks.
synergy said:I didn't take pics of it. I've seen a half dozen guns blow up in the last year or so...I don't really get too excited about it. We boxed it up and sent it back that day.
I won't attempt to dispute your claim, as I see no clear reason you would make something like this up. But I don't really understand your "don't get too excited" comment. I know this happens occasionally, actually quite rarely, but I cannot see that you wouldn't "get too excited" about this happening at your range. Especially multiple times. You must obviously understand that you WOULD be held liable for an injury that resulted from normal use of a rented weapon. The shooter could have easily been killed. It seems this would "excite" you to the point that you would document any situation like this to include pictures and statements to aid any case that may arise. You may not be the owner of this range, but surely he would want to protect himself in such a manner. If this really has happened twice now, with the same product, wouldn't this show some negligance on the range's part to keep using weapons that explode in this manner?
synergy said:Nope, they blew up. I watched it happen on the second incident.
Shooter checked in and loaded magazine. Took the first shot, shot hit the paper target (not squib). Took the second shot, half of the gun blew off. I came over, cleared and took the gun, made sure shooter was ok.
Barrel was cracked from just forward of the chamber all the way to the muzzle. The front half of the frame flew forward about 6', cracked where I mentioned it did.
I watched the only 2 shots that went through that gun (edit: <- on that particular range session). So, unless the barrel cracked before, and was put away with no-one noticing it....it happened while I watched it. The shooter had JUST started shooting, had a fresh target, and I watched him place both shots on the target.
Yeah, that's not the gun. Something was wrong with the ammo. Barrels do NOT just blow up. This is often why ranges require you use their ammo in their rentals. But then if they decide to use something like ultramax or bob's local reloads, stuff like this can still happen pretty easily.
If you are selling reloads to your customers, and guns keep blowing up, I'd find a different vendor ASAP. Even if the dollar cost is still favorable, your liability is awful.
If you do have a KB, sometimes the frame on a polymer is jsut toast, You'll see it on glocks, XDs, etc. It's a polymer frame. Given the geometry of it, I'm not surprised the trigger guard snaps when the frame fails. AS long as it doesn't cause injury, it is a push. It's not like the trigger guard staying intact would leave you with a usable gun.
If it is indeed UMC ammo causing you problems i might give remington a call and ask them WTF.
Ah, yes, another "M&P can't do it, but Glock/XD can..." thread.
Next? :roll:
Next? :roll:
again, the ammo was NOT reloads. bad rounds come out of good factories too.
the shooter was NOT hurt and everyone who shoots there signs a waiver. beyond that, it's the owners choice on how they want to handle it.
i've seen a lot of .40's blow up, and a .45 that someone double charged their reload on.
everything that broke was FORWARD of the chamber...i don't think case support is related, but I'm not an engineer.
here is a representation of where the pistol broke.
the shooter was NOT hurt and everyone who shoots there signs a waiver. beyond that, it's the owners choice on how they want to handle it.
i've seen a lot of .40's blow up, and a .45 that someone double charged their reload on.
everything that broke was FORWARD of the chamber...i don't think case support is related, but I'm not an engineer.
here is a representation of where the pistol broke.
sherpa said:Could be lack of full case support in the critical area over the feed ramp, some because of overpressure reloads or those with brittled brass, though the latter might not be the case since you might be using factory loads.
Also, I don't believe the brass ruptured, i'm pretty sure it stayed in tact. What I don't remember was if it failed to extract, and I racked it out of the chamber, or it ejected on its own and loaded another round.
Being that all of the damage to the gun was forward of the chamber, I think that's proof of the brass staying intact, and this having nothing to do with a "partially supported chamber". These guns blew up very differently than the Glocks tend to.
synergy said:.40 is a high pressure round...guns blow up. I've personally seen the aftermath on a USP .40 compact, a Kahr PM-40, a G23C, and the M&P 40. All .40's...I've yet to see a 9mm blow up.
Just wanted to point out one quick fact. 40 S&W is not a high pressure round. It runs with in 1,000 to 2,000 cup of a 9mm.
Most 9mm run 25,000 to 32,000 cup
Most .40 run 28,000 to 33,000 cup
I believe the hype 40 s&w has received is due to it has for years been forced into guns designed to be 9mm and also that not all barrels are fully supported. When some guns blew up people automatically assumed the 40 S&W was a high pressure round it is not. +p+ and +p 9mm will exceed 40 S&W sometimes.
I have a strange feeling your range got a bad batch of ammo and the unlucky recipient was the M&P's. If you haven’t fired all of it yet I would contact the manufactory and check for any recalls. Everyone makes mistakes, including ammo manufactures.
1. If the brass didn't rupture and the failure occurred just forward of the chamber, my guess is a squib. I've had a squib using factory ammo in the past.
2. The SAAMI MAP for standard pressure 9x19mm and .40 S&W is the same: 35,000psi.
2. The SAAMI MAP for standard pressure 9x19mm and .40 S&W is the same: 35,000psi.
ToddG said:1. If the brass didn't rupture and the failure occurred just forward of the chamber, my guess is a squib. I've had a squib using factory ammo in the past.
2. The SAAMI MAP for standard pressure 9x19mm and .40 S&W is the same: 35,000psi.
I personally watched both shots hit the paper, seconds apart. There was no projectile lodged in the barrel. Had I not seen both shots hit the target, I would definitly agree with you...but I KNOW this is not the case. The shooter had a B-27 Center target, placed the first shot 6 inches above the X, placed the next shot about dead on when the gun blew up. It wasn't a squib.
Not that I know everything about ammo pressures, but why is it then that we don't see ".40 +P" loads on the market? The answer I have traditionally heard, is that .40 is already at a very high pressure...right or wrong, that's what I've always heard.
Can you also please send a pic for this? I'm concerned with this too as mine is a 9mmsynergy said:... The fullsize 9mm has a broken extractor pin (the little pin visable from the underside of the slide, going up through the top).
Likewise, you have a shot of how the metal surface of the mag release looks like? Could it be almost totally worn out? Would just like to see how it looks like now compared to a new one.synergy said:The compact 9mm is just now dropping its magazine on almost every shot. It ran fine for months, but now drops the mag more often than not.
Thanks.
synergy said:The shooter had a B-27 Center target, placed the first shot 6 inches above the X, placed the next shot about dead on when the gun blew up. It wasn't a squib.
So to be clear ... the round that blew the gun still managed to propel the bullet in a normal trajectory at the target? Weirder and weirder ...
Not that I know everything about ammo pressures, but why is it then that we don't see ".40 +P" loads on the market? The answer I have traditionally heard, is that .40 is already at a very high pressure...right or wrong, that's what I've always heard.
"High" is a relative term when it comes to pressure. A 35kpsi .45 ACP cartridge could quite possibly blow a barrel, while a 35kpsi 5.56mm cartridge probably wouldn't cycle a bolt.
ToddG said:[quote name='synergy']The shooter had a B-27 Center target, placed the first shot 6 inches above the X, placed the next shot about dead on when the gun blew up. It wasn't a squib.
So to be clear ... the round that blew the gun still managed to propel the bullet in a normal trajectory at the target? Weirder and weirder ...
Not that I know everything about ammo pressures, but why is it then that we don't see ".40 +P" loads on the market? The answer I have traditionally heard, is that .40 is already at a very high pressure...right or wrong, that's what I've always heard.
"High" is a relative term when it comes to pressure. A 35kpsi .45 ACP cartridge could quite possibly blow a barrel, while a 35kpsi 5.56mm cartridge probably wouldn't cycle a bolt.[/quote]
Your telling me! Imagine my supprise when I saw a shooter place a round square on target, at the beginning of my day (coffee still yet to kick in), only to see half of the frame go sliding down-range.
Anyway you slice it, .40's blow up far more often than 9mm's or .45acp's. It will be interesting to see how the .45GAP does in this regard.
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