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Discussion Starter #1
Since having my new MP I have been doing a little pistol talk at work. One of my co-workers is in the army reservers and was talking about some of the training they do with their weapons. Being very naive I asked what type of bullets that they use. I was very surprised when he told me that they could only use the (round ball) FMJ round in the military. He told me that this is from the Genevia Convention and that all military rounds are FMJ. This seems a little outdated to me and I as I read how important it is to the law enforcement people on this forum to have optimal stopping force it is to bad that we can not give this to our military people. Any comments?
 

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That's the way it's been for a very long time, but you do have to consider the military way of doing things, we were taught in Advanced Military Science that it was more important to wound the enemy than kill them, a civilized enemy takes care of their wounded, and a wounded soldier ties up 5 or 6 people just taking care of them, the dead can wait, but the wounded need evacuation and care.



This works pretty well as long as your enemy is civilized, what we are facing now is an enemy that isn't afraid to die, and for the most part don't care about their wounded, so from that standpoint it's very outdated.
 

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John highlighted the little-known benefits of FMJ ammo in wartime, and is right that it only applies to "civilized" warfare...think about WWII-type combat.



Our use of FMJ actually comes from the Hague Conventions of the late 1800s, but is often accredited to the Geneva Conventions. Interestingly enough, our military law enforcement personnel stateside are allowed to use hollow-points when engaging a threat...but only stateside in an LEO function. It sucks that we're allowed to use HP ammo on criminal Americans, but only FMJ on terrorist POS's.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I guess the kicker is that we can fly a missle through the door of a targeted buliding, but we are not giving the military people you see in urban warfare the best tools to survive for close combat. It was one of thoes you have got to be kidding moments when he said they are only allowed to use FMJ when most of us make sure that for home protection we have some type of HP in one of our clips at least.
 

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jaybird said:
Since having my new MP I have been doing a little pistol talk at work. One of my co-workers is in the army reservers and was talking about some of the training they do with their weapons. Being very naive I asked what type of bullets that they use. I was very surprised when he told me that they could only use the (round ball) FMJ round in the military. He told me that this is from the Genevia Convention and that all military rounds are FMJ. This seems a little outdated to me and I as I read how important it is to the law enforcement people on this forum to have optimal stopping force it is to bad that we can not give this to our military people. Any comments?


I can't speak for any other branches other than the USAF. The US Air Force Security Police are issued Jacketed Hollow Points at most stateside bases. The US Air Force since the late 90's (98-99 time frame) has been issuing 124gr JHP for the Beretta M9 to on duty Security Police. This was done because the amounts of officer involved shooting increased from the mid 80's to the mid 90's. Even with ball ammo most AF SP's came out on the winnig end other than a couple that where ambushed. The AF leadership was forward thinking enough to make a move. The AF JAG has ruled it is not a violation of the Hague treaty (the Hague not the geneva is what restricted hp ammo in war) due to stateside SP's doing more of a domestic LE duty. If you deploy overseas you revert back to NATO Ball ammo. Also the 9mm is the only one issued with JHP the M/4/16 is issued ball ammo.



I have 21 years (15 active duty 6 ANG) as an AF SP so I have seen the change. Even my ANG unit has been issuing JHP for about 7 years now.

Also as directed by AF instruction Security Police (Security Forces now) carry the M9 with a round in the chamber and the weapon in the fire position. the hammer is forward of course. It's the same concept as a double action revolver (which we carred befor the switch Model 15 38)
 

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There has to be a clear enemy, soldier or insergent doesnt matter its the same thing. Using JHP goes against the Laws Of Land Warfare. Military Law enforcment are allowed to use JHP, because they are Law enforcment doing there duties in upholding the law. They are not allowed to use them in a war zone or combat zone against a known military threat or enemy. Every branch of service must abide by the Laws of Land warfare, with certain groups within the branches having special treatment Im sure. This comes from the fact that you cannot use projectiles that cause unnecessery sufering ie Hollow points. Sounds weird but thats the Law that we go by on the battle field!
 

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Our use of FMJ actually comes from the Hague Conventions of the late 1800s, but is often accredited to the Geneva Conventions. Interestingly enough, our military law enforcement personnel stateside are allowed to use hollow-points when engaging a threat...but only stateside in an LEO function.


The really ironic part is we are not signers of either conventions, we only observe them with our doctrine. So really, we do it out of...morality I suppose.
 

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The other side of the coin is that our enemies, almost without exception, have disregarded the Geneva Convention in the treatment of our POW's, both in the 20th century and now the 21st century.



It is ironic that we always try to do the right thing even though our enemies ignore the same rules, it was argued that we shouldn't use excessive force in interrogation, because our enemies might start treating our captured soldiers the same way...well, every enemy that we have faced in the last 100 years has never treated our captured soldiers in a fair and equitable manner, totally ignoring the rules of civilized warfare.
 

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supposedly hp are inhumane. if it kills quicker, isn't that being more humane? hmm
 

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Think about reliablility in the various pistols in military use and the various conditions of those pistols. FMJ is going to be a lot more reliable in firearms that don't get as much TLC as our carry guns. Since the use of pistols vs. rifles against the enemy is pretty small, and high velocity rifle fmj is extremly effective, using fmj in both weapons is a pretty good decision.



Add in cost, logistics and the Haige convention, I know that if it were up to me, I would be issuing FMJ.



Thanks, Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I really enjoy reading the opinions/rationals for the different types of bullets from different individuals. I totally agree that in WWI or WWII the idea of wounding an enemy made sense. I also realize that any change in any branch of military is a long process. I just wish that in some situations overseas we would give our people every advantage they can get to stop a would be attacker.

On this same subject is the MP going to be one of the guns the military has to choose from when they decide change gun/caliber?
 

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jaybird said:
but we are not giving the military people you see in urban warfare the best tools to survive for close combat.


That's why we give them rifles. Realisticly if you are tyring to make someone dead, a handgun is not the best choice for the job.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
That is what my arm buddy said to. He said about the time you have to use your pistol in battle in about the time you realize you are in a bunch of trouble.
 

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Private security forces in Irag use Jacketed hollow points, and flangable ammo for there 5.56 with outstanding results. But they do what they can do, and the military does what it can do.
 

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targetsup said:
There has to be a clear enemy, soldier or insergent doesnt matter its the same thing. Using JHP goes against the Laws Of Land Warfare. Military Law enforcment are allowed to use JHP, because they are Law enforcment doing there duties in upholding the law. They are not allowed to use them in a war zone or combat zone against a known military threat or enemy. Every branch of service must abide by the Laws of Land warfare, with certain groups within the branches having special treatment Im sure. This comes from the fact that you cannot use projectiles that cause unnecessery sufering ie Hollow points. Sounds weird but thats the Law that we go by on the battle field!


Not exactly correct. The JAG opinions also allow the use of expanding ammo by special forces against terrs. The use of open tip match ammo by all services snipers is allowed because the open tip is there to enhance accuracy not wound potential.
 

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brywards said:
John highlighted the little-known benefits of FMJ ammo in wartime, and is right that it only applies to "civilized" warfare...think about WWII-type combat.



Our use of FMJ actually comes from the Hague Conventions of the late 1800s, but is often accredited to the Geneva Conventions. Interestingly enough, our military law enforcement personnel stateside are allowed to use hollow-points when engaging a threat...but only stateside in an LEO function. It sucks that we're allowed to use HP ammo on criminal Americans, but only FMJ on terrorist POS's.




That is interesting. I was a MP in the U.S. Army for 21 years and we were never allowed to use hollow point ammo (LEO duty or Combat duty in tactical mode). It sounds like you are talking about the Air Force. I have heard cases where the Air Force was authorized to use hollow point ammo, but being a retired Soldier, we never considered the Air Force a branch of the service anyway since the discipline in the Air Force was slim to none, but we always knew they had a place in our lives. We needed them for the ride, that was about it.



Take Care and Aim High (while sitting in the rear with the gear).



Ronin (Retired Combat Cop) :wink:
 

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jaybird said:
That is what my arm buddy said to. He said about the time you have to use your pistol in battle in about the time you realize you are in a bunch of trouble.




That may be true in some cases, but I can tell you of two instances where I had two MP buddies in Iraq, go to the M9 in a small room while clearing a building. They killed three enemy insurgents using a pistol. I can say if you are talking about combat service support Soldiers going to a pistol as last defense, then we are doomed. I had to train many clerks, supply specialists, and other in the rear with the gear slugs, who had to qualify with a pistol (mostly senior NCOs and officers) and after a day of pistol instruction, couldn't hit a person with a pistol throwing it at them , much less shooting at them. MPs and other combat support/front line fighters training alot with pistols. Yes, the basic concept of the pistol is in the personal/self defense mode, but it can be deployed effectively in the offensive mode if put in the right hands. Yes, I even had to pistol train some Marines, who sucked real bad with a pistol. I don't buy into the Marine Hype. I've seen it first hand that it is BS. Again, if you are talking about Marines in combat support and direct combat Marines, they are pretty damn squared away, but once you stray from the combat arm jobs, its all down hill from there, just as the case is in the Army with the rear in the gear jobs.





Take Care and God Bless!



Ronin
 

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ronin67 said:
we never considered the Air Force a branch of the service anyway since the discipline in the Air Force was slim to none, but we always knew they had a place in our lives. We needed them for the ride, that was about it.


We thank you for your support and respect.:roll:



Anytime we're armed during flight we carry hollow point rounds in the M9's.
 

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I'm not sure that this is in any way part of the consideration, but many JHP rounds will clog when passing though heavy fabric (including military uniforms) and not expand properly. There are several new rounds created in the past decade or so that are much better, but bureaucracies aren't known to be move quickly. Just a thought.
 
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