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Discussion Starter #1
Finally had a chance to sit down with an armorer and "design" the trigger for my M&P9.



He was able to adapt the regular components of the gun to work with the heavier trigger return spring from the MA-compliant 10# mechanism. The result is a trigger pull that weighs just a bit over 6#, is extremely crisp, and has a reset that hits your finger like a freight train compared to a normal non-MA M&P. The take-up now has some resistance to it, which I also wanted. If you've ever played with a Glock using the 3.5# connector and the "NY1" trigger spring, this feels a lot like that setup but with a crisper break.



I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain all that he did, but essentially he did the equivalent of a 4# trigger job on the gun, then modified it for the heavier return spring. The trigger now weighs in at 6-and-a-quarter pounds on my NRA weight set, and I expect it may drop by a tiny amount with use.



So you're probably asking why?



  • I'm a firm believer that the proliferation of trigger-lightening on carry and duty pistols is a mistake. It's unsafe. Period. For years, 4.5# was considered the safe minimum for a 1911 ... and that's on a gun that has a positive manual safety! Under stress, in an environment lacking a bullet-safe backstop or identifiable "down range" safe area, the same trigger that is so easy to shoot at the range becomes easy to shoot accidentally in your home or on the sidewalk. Chant "my trigger finger and my brain are my safeties" all you want ... under stress, caca happens. With this heavier setup not only is my margin of error 50% better than a 4# trigger, but I get tactile feedback the moment my finger starts to move the trigger.


  • Trigger pull weight isn't nearly as critical as many people think. In my experience, only a tiny number of people truly shoot sub-3# triggers better than 5#+ triggers. There is certainly a perception that it's easier, and certainly if you're shooting bullseyes at 50yd it could make some difference. But if you're operating at speed, it's going to be the crispness and the overtravel (or lack thereof) that makes the biggest difference in your accuracy ... especially under stress.


  • There are two advantages to having a strong positive reset. First, for any given amount of travel, a stronger reset spring means the gun will reset faster. Faster reset means faster follow-up shots. Second, a stronger reset means the trigger is moving forward as fast as your trigger finger will allow ... so you're less likely to lose contact with the trigger, less likely to slap your followup shots, and therefore your accuracy at speed should be better. (I can't claim credit for these two points as original ideas; Jerry Miculek took the time to explain it to me once when I was shooting a SIG DAK in competition and doing better than I'd expected
    ).




    • I've only put a box of ammo through the gun so I can't say I've measured my splits yet. But I did get to shoot some 6" plates at 35yd and was getting all my hits. The same drill on the same targets with my gun before this work (about a 5.25# trigger pull but not crisp by any means) wasn't nearly as successful. Which again proves that it's the crisp trigger with minimal overtravel that gives you accuracy, not light weight.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I had originally discussed this plan with Dan Burwell, and based on those conversations I'm confident he could do a similar job for someone.



Based on what I was told today, you cannot simply drop the spring into the gun. Something (that's a technical term) needs to be modified. Also, I had other work done to the trigger to achieve all the nice crispiness and minimal-overtravelocity.



The other approach would be to start with the MA-compliant trigger group and smith it down to a lighter pull. No idea whether that would give you a heavier or lighter or smoother or crisper pull than I have. And mine is perfect as is so I'm not going to find out.
 

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Todd,

Glad you got all fixed up.



Marc,

send me an email. Sometimes I have them around.
 

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I agree that the average dude shouldnt have sub 4 lb trigger but myself and about 20 of the best ipsc shooters in the world will disagree about a light trigger.. 2 lbish.. not being what is required in competion. sj
 

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Dan Burwell said:
Todd,

Glad you got all fixed up.



Marc,

send me an email. Sometimes I have them around.


Will do Dan. As soon as I get my M&P45 I'll call and arrange for you to do the trigger on my M&P9.



Then when that is done you can do the trigger on my M&P45
 

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Discussion Starter #7
gsteve said:
I agree that the average dude shouldnt have sub 4 lb trigger but myself and about 20 of the best ipsc shooters in the world will disagree about a light trigger.. 2 lbish.. not being what is required in competion. sj


What's beneficial for the top 20 shooters in the world isn't necessarily beneficial (or smart, or safe) for the other 5,999,999,980.



In my experience, 80% of shooters think they're the top 5% of shooters.



I've won quite a few trophies using triggers over 2# ... and over 4#.
 

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Chant "my trigger finger and my brain are my safeties" all you want ... under stress, caca happens.
God how I cringe when I hear the I don't need no stinking safeties chant.
 

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ToddG said:
[quote name='gsteve']I agree that the average dude shouldnt have sub 4 lb trigger but myself and about 20 of the best ipsc shooters in the world will disagree about a light trigger.. 2 lbish.. not being what is required in competion. sj


What's beneficial for the top 20 shooters in the world isn't necessarily beneficial (or smart, or safe) for the other 5,999,999,980.



In my experience, 80% of shooters think they're the top 5% of shooters.



I've won quite a few trophies using triggers over 2# ... and over 4#.[/quote]



Thats pretty much what i said... ive won a few national championships and many been top 10 in many world level matches. I think we are basicly agreeing. sj
 

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ToddG this is really interesting. Couldn't agree more on the lighter trigger situation. I want a consistent trigger pull with a positive reset and this idea really peaks my interest.



I gotta get my M&P's over to Dan. My .45 trigger is actually better than my .40 trigger but i really need a more positive reset.
 

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I startled one of my dogs laughing out loud at that one! Boy is that ever true.





ToddG said:
What's beneficial for the top 20 shooters in the world isn't necessarily beneficial (or smart, or safe) for the other 5,999,999,980.

In my experience, 80% of shooters think they're the top 5% of shooters.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I shot the gun extensively today using the "new" trigger. I'm extremely happy with it. Everything feels much more positive. I did not see any measurable change in accuracy or speed, though I was still getting used to the greater weight and different reset in the beginning. Even if everything else stays the same, I traded a little more safety for no cost. In the long run, I expect to eek a bit faster split out of the gun thanks to the more forceful reset, though ...
 

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simple modification of the sear results in a nice audible click during overtravel.

Its no Glock NY trigger spring reset, but its quite palpable.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
olyeller said:
simple modification of the sear results in a nice audible click during overtravel.

Its no Glock NY trigger spring reset, but its quite palpable.


I'd had that done previously. The reset, though obvious, was still what I would call "lazy" ... my finger could easily outrace the trigger forward.



Don't get me wrong, I know the majority of people are very, very happy with trigger jobs which include the modification you're talking about (or similar methods of achieving a consistent and detectable reset). I guess I just need to be different.
 

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Cool ToddG. Your 'armorer' came in today and said he had just finished it. Sounds interesting. I too don't like really light triggers. I have mine set (on my M&P9) at about 4.5-4.75lbs but crisp with a shortened reset. Shooting at speed I think I do come completely off of the trigger (just habit). But I still get better hits than my 2011 STI.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
gotm4 said:
Cool ToddG. Your 'armorer' came in today and said he had just finished it. Sounds interesting. I too don't like really light triggers. I have mine set (on my M&P9) at about 4.5-4.75lbs but crisp with a shortened reset. Shooting at speed I think I do come completely off of the trigger (just habit). But I still get better hits than my 2011 STI.


Dude, if you'll be at the shop on Monday perhaps I'll stop by and you can see if you like it. There has to be something I need to pick up.
 

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ToddG said:
[quote name='gotm4']Cool ToddG. Your 'armorer' came in today and said he had just finished it. Sounds interesting. I too don't like really light triggers. I have mine set (on my M&P9) at about 4.5-4.75lbs but crisp with a shortened reset. Shooting at speed I think I do come completely off of the trigger (just habit). But I still get better hits than my 2011 STI.


Dude, if you'll be at the shop on Monday perhaps I'll stop by and you can see if you like it. There has to be something I need to pick up.
[/quote]



I'll be there Monday open to close (10am-7pm) and I'll have mine too.
 

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ToddG said:
[quote name='olyeller']simple modification of the sear results in a nice audible click during overtravel.

Its no Glock NY trigger spring reset, but its quite palpable.


I'd had that done previously. The reset, though obvious, was still what I would call "lazy" ... my finger could easily outrace the trigger forward.



Don't get me wrong, I know the majority of people are very, very happy with trigger jobs which include the modification you're talking about (or similar methods of achieving a consistent and detectable reset). I guess I just need to be different.
[/quote]





You know what works for you, thats a great ability to have; to be honest with yourself.



I honestly tell you, though, I havent felt a pistol reset in years.
 

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ToddG said:
...



[*] There are two advantages to having a strong positive reset. First, for any given amount of travel, a stronger reset spring means the gun will reset faster. Faster reset means faster follow-up shots. Second, a stronger reset means the trigger is moving forward as fast as your trigger finger will allow ... so you're less likely to lose contact with the trigger, less likely to slap your followup shots, and therefore your accuracy at speed should be better. (I can't claim credit for these two points as original ideas; Jerry Miculek took the time to explain it to me once when I was shooting a SIG DAK in competition and doing better than I'd expected
).

[/list]...


Thanks for the detail Todd. Once again a good, informative, straight to the point discussion. Being new to the pistol arena, I never thought about the trigger returning, just pushing it back!!! I am going to do a job on my MP9 and will pay extra attention to all stages of Mr Burwell’s class… especially the return bits
8)
 
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