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The data appears to be almost five years old. I would say it's not an accurate representation of what would apply with today's ammo.
 

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I don't think Hatcher's work has withstood the test of time. It's particularly worth noting that it makes no account for different bullet designs, etc. Also, any claim that rounds which meet a certain threshold "result in a one-shot stop 90% of the time" is an automatic warning bell for me.
 

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I always get my firearm related information from Free Republic!



Uhhhh.....not exactly!



There are some good places on the net to get firearms related information, and Free Republic isn't one of them!



Here's a lot better source for information on bullet performance. http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tact...c;f=78;t=000964
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Sorry gang, didn't know if that was a reputable article/site or not.



Thanks,



Joe



M&P 40

Mossberg 500 Watchdog
 

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I certainly would not be concerned about the effectiveness of the .40. Anyone who trots out the old "short and weak" should be immediately ignored. For a handgun cartridge it has done quite well for itself.
 

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Steelshooter said:
I certainly would not be concerned about the effectiveness of the .40. Anyone who trots out the old "short and weak" should be immediately ignored. For a handgun cartridge it has done quite well for itself.


The term "40 short and weak" originated from its inception. The 40 S&W was created from the 10mm round. The FBI wanted to replace its in-effective 9mm's with something more powerfull so the 10mm was created. Unfortunately it turned out to be too powerfull for some of the "girlymen" and wemen in the FBI and they complained about the recoil and lack of control for their limpwristed shooting style. Therefore Smith & Wesson took advantage of the opportunity, so they took the 10mm, cut the case down in lengnth and reduced the powder charge and whala, the 40S&W.



So, compared to its big brother, it is "short" and it is "weak".
 

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The FBI did a lot of research and testing, they developed a set of parameters that they considered ideal in a self defense round, Smith & Wesson in conjunction with some others went to work to develop a cartridge tailored to those parameters, they also wanted a cartridge that would fit the same frame size as the 9mm. After extensive research and testing they came up with the 40 S&W cartridge, it turned out to be an excellent choice and has had wide acceptance in both law enforcement and the personal defense sectors of the market, for the most part it has replaced 9mm in many police agencies.



While some might call it short and weak, in reality it would be more accurate to call it optimized for the job.
 

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I was only explaining where the term "short & weak" originated. The 40 s&w is an effective cartridge although I prefer th 45acp in all situations involving human assailants. If your talking anything larger or more aggressive than a human I would much prefer the 10mm over the 40 and 45. I also believe that the 10mm is AT LEAST as effective on human targets as the 40S&W and depending on the firearm and skill level, not much harder to control if at all.
 

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Joe Merchant said:
[quote name='ske1eter']Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue



http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballist...0a%20morgue.htm


Now that is a good article! Lots of info in there! Great Reading




Joe

M&P 40

Mossberf 500 Watchdog[/quote]



That article is worth about as much as you're paying for it.

The guy advocates using 7.5 shot in a shotgun...sorry, not interested.



Pretty much all handguns suck equally well.



9mm, .40S&W, .357SIG, .45ACP, .45GAP, 10mm....I wouldn't count on any of them doing much of anything unless you hit CNS. If you can fire it out of your hand..."stopping power" or "knockdown power" just went out the window.
 

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"A handgun is only to fight your way to a rifle." - someone far wiser than I



However I don't agree with that guy working the morgue. Most gang bangers use only fmj or whatever hollowpoints were in the gun when they stole. I carry a 9mm and no one is going to convince me that its not going to work...too many people are laying 6 ft under testify differently. Just my .02
 

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I am familiar with the story of inception of the 10mm, the .40 and the origin of the term short and weak.



There are lots of theories of handgun ammunition effectiveness arrived at by various methods. I think the only way to get anything like a true picture is to use multiple methods of gathering and analyzing data and even then as an approximation not a sure thing. The worst possible method is to only use a consistent medium like ballistic gelatin as proof of anything. Ammo manufacturers love it though as well as theoreticians who can use it to make pretty pictures, charts and graphs.



I also don't buy the statement that all handgun calibers are equally effective. You hear that from 9mm owners more than anyone. Not hard to figure out why.



ebar5 said:
[quote name='Steelshooter']I certainly would not be concerned about the effectiveness of the .40. Anyone who trots out the old "short and weak" should be immediately ignored. For a handgun cartridge it has done quite well for itself.


The term "40 short and weak" originated from its inception. The 40 S&W was created from the 10mm round. The FBI wanted to replace its in-effective 9mm's with something more powerfull so the 10mm was created. Unfortunately it turned out to be too powerfull for some of the "girlymen" and wemen in the FBI and they complained about the recoil and lack of control for their limpwristed shooting style. Therefore Smith & Wesson took advantage of the opportunity, so they took the 10mm, cut the case down in lengnth and reduced the powder charge and whala, the 40S&W.



So, compared to its big brother, it is "short" and it is "weak".[/quote]
 

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I agree. That is why I prefer the good ol' time tested 45acp. We KNOW it works. Nearly 100yrs of street testing. No speculation or graphs can change the facts. Even in FMJ its effective.
 

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ebar5 said:
I agree. That is why I prefer the good ol' time tested 45acp. We KNOW it works. Nearly 100yrs of street testing. No speculation or graphs can change the facts. Even in FMJ its effective.


You KNOW that, huh?



I have a buddy how shot someone trying to rob his store...from about 2 feet away, .45ACP jacketed hollow point....he hit the kid in the upper right side of his chest, the shot traversed his torso to the lower right side (low in his right lung).



My friend thought he missed, as the kid did nothing. The kid wasn't on an substances...just adrenaline. My friend fired again and missed, the kid ran out of the store....they ended up finding him a couple block down, dead.



Lesson learned...the guy took a .45ACP JHP, which passed through 12" or more of his torso...and didn't even flinch. He then was able to RUN a couple blocks away.



Handguns suck...they're not gonna take you out of the fight instantly, unless you hit CNS. Do you think your spinal cord knows the difference between a 9mm and a .40?
 

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I didn't say hanguns or the 45acp were the ultimate fight stopper but they are the best you'll get walking through Wal-mart or the mall. Yes, I (and anyone intelectually honest) knows that the 45acp has by far the longest and the best history of stopping fights quick. The only rival that has a ligitamate argument would be the 357mag. Concidering the platforms used to fire the cartridges, the 45acp still stands out.



As for your friends story goes, we all KNOW that motor oil prevents wear on a cars engine but some work better than others. That doesn't mean that if you use the best you won't ever have engine trouble. Yes, nothing is absolute and 45acp fails occationally, 9mm works occationally. On the other hand, 45acp works mostly and 9mm......well? Most special ops, swat units and people who make a living teaching gun fighting choose some sort of 45acp platform as their personal sidearm. The US Military is looking to go back to the 45acp. Endless stories of 9mm failures are coming out of war zones. This is the first time in modern history with mass media and transfer of information that the 9mm has been tested in combat. Its far from optimal for a sidearm.



No, the CNS does not know the difference in caliber when struck, but when you concider hydro-static shock values, temporary and permanent wound cavities, the odds of a CNS hit or damage, the 45acp outperforms 9mm. As a side note, I read a study one time that just the size of a weapons bore plays a factor is deterence. All said and done, some can't see the forrest because of the all the trees.
 
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