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I was talking to a co-worker who is getting his CCW soon and we brought this topic up. His opnion was that both were a liability issue. Night sights because if you are shooting in the dark can you REALLY determine if what you are shooting at is a threat and rail mounted lights becuase he said something about "lights are suppose to warn them and if you carry it in your hand you have control to not put it right in their face." or something along those lines.



I got to thinking and i believe his opnion on night sights now that I have them. I wanted them in the beginning but now I'm wondering if a BG comes in and I shoot him if my DA is going to try to prove I shot him in the dark because I have night sights.



I also thought about getting a rail mounted light to take away the guy's vision (I've looked into some LEDs myself) and I guess I'm glad I haven't bought one.







PLEASE don't say "well just take the light off and turn the lights on" or something. I know that would be really easy to do but say my neighbor who is a K-9 sherrif comes over after hearing shots fired and sees the light mounted on the gun. Then he files the report...
 

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No offense but that is nonsense. Tritium sights help you to maintain proper sight alignment in periods of reduced illumination. A rail mounted light is there to help you identify a potnetial threat and to put him behind the power curve if you have to resort to deadly force. For me, night sights are a requirement for any personal protection pistol. A mounted light is optional, but a very handy thing to have. With the last part being said, a weapon light does not replace the need for a handheld light.
 

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tstrenuous10 said:
I was talking to a co-worker who is getting his CCW soon and we brought this topic up. His opnion was that both were a liability issue. Night sights because if you are shooting in the dark can you REALLY determine if what you are shooting at is a threat and rail mounted lights becuase he said something about "lights are suppose to warn them and if you carry it in your hand you have control to not put it right in their face." or something along those lines.
Maybe I don't understand what your co-worker was saying. NS or not, you shoot to protect your life and you have to determine a present threat before you start blasting anyway. You don't just blindly shoot at things, that's how you end up killing your wife's cat. :wink: When you determine that your life is in danger, NS will just help you to shoot straighter in low light.



"Lights are supposed to warn them?" What would be wrong about "putting it in their face?"



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i didn't see a problem with putting it in their face and blinding them as a warning. If anything they would see that and put their hands up to block it from their face.



I guess he was refering to the low light situations. We were both discussing the topic and I was only thinking of shooting at a shadow. He was just refering to the idea of being able to identify a threat if you need night sights. How well could you determine a threat if you can barley make it out. I dunno...I was wondering about it so I posted it up here.



I would probably turn a light on to see what I'm shooting at so I DON'T shoot the dog. I would kind of miss him too.
 

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Don't use a light as a warning. Use it to help you see in the dark and illuminate a potential target.



You may be in a low light situation where there's enough light to clearly see that it isn't a family member across the living room from you, but there's not enough light to pick up your sights well. NS sights would be helpful in this scenario.



I wouldn't flick on the lights in the house. Have you ever got up in the middle of the night to use the restroom and turned on the light? Your eyes probably had a hard time adjusting to the sudden bright light. Someone who has jut broken into your house, will probably be less affected by sudden light. Even if you did turn on the lights, you would have to turn on the lights in the room the bad guy was in. If you turned your bedroom light on, then turned the hallway light on (as you advanced), the bad guy would remain in the dark living room and now you would appear silhouetted in the hallway from the light coming from behind you. You are now an easy target and he isn't.



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I agree with choochboost, the darkness is your friend, and nobody knows your house better than you do. On the topic of night sights, my CC instructor was a student of Darrell Mulroy (and some of the old timers know where this is going), who advocated point shooting. The principle of this is that when you are under stress the fine motor skills will go away, and the last thing you see will be the sights because you will be focused on the threat. Thus, point shooting skills can come in handy for the 0-21 ft zone, if so, you won't be using sights at all. I'm all for flashlights, but you will have to make a decision in each situation whether it will help or hinder, and leave it off or turn it on.
 

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I picked up the streamlight TLR-2 today for just over 200 from sportsmans guide, as it is just a 10 minute drive for me. It has both the tac light and laser so i can have the both of best worlds if i should choose. I will let you know what i think of it after my next trip to the range.
 

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wallcloud said:
The principle of this is that when you are under stress the fine motor skills will go away, and the last thing you see will be the sights because you will be focused on the threat.
Why on Earth wouldnt you use the sights? With any degree of training you should still be aligning your sights with the threat. YOur focus will be in the threat you are facing, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt be doing everything else you normally do when shooting (align the sights, smooth trigger press, follow-through, etc)
 

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Howdy all,



I have been training in these matters for 15 years, and teaching for about a decade, Our training is accepted by many states (the right combination of states gets you 34 state carry) just to give a little background.

The problem here is the reactions to fright, there are significant changes in body chemistry when TSHTF. The chemical dump beats anything man has to offer, endorphins, adrenaline, cortisol, and more. These can shut down most of your senses. You will lose near vision and will also revert to binocular vision (the ability to focus with one eye is greatly reduced or eliminated), fine motor skills are lost due to vasoconstriction (narrowing of blood vessels), hearing is usually the first to go, and much more. Using sights requires focusing back and forth quickly on 3 objects - rear sight, front sight, and target. These changes will remove that ability in most civillian encounters. Too close, too fast. Most of these are over in 2 seconds, and if the gun is not in your hand when it starts you will likely not get to it in time. I have a lot of medical studies, shootout studies, and much other data to back this up. I am not looking to start arguments, just trying to help folks understand the complexity of this kind of thing. I love my streamlight, it's just not on my gun, it is the first weapon I pull, hopefully to blind them before I need a gun. (and hey, you can't get in much legal trouble for using it).



-Steve
 

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It's been a while since I posted since I've been out watching another board, and returning here wanted to have some information to illustrate why I think what I think. Pistolcraft is a different instructor of mine, and beat me to posting back here in this thread, but my instructor wrote with some great background info which I quote below.



NCPatrolAR said:
[quote name='wallcloud']The principle of this is that when you are under stress the fine motor skills will go away, and the last thing you see will be the sights because you will be focused on the threat.
Why on Earth wouldnt you use the sights? With any degree of training you should still be aligning your sights with the threat. YOur focus will be in the threat you are facing, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt be doing everything else you normally do when shooting (align the sights, smooth trigger press, follow-through, etc)[/quote]



Of course we should use sights, but point shooting is another skill that can be used, and in close quarters keeping it simple when the adreneline is pumping could be advantageous. There is no reason not to learn both.



I suppose it really depends on the individual situation. If you are hunting a BG in a big warehouse to throw out an example, night sights may come in handy, longer range, use sights. If a situation comes up suddenly, that may be a different story, in the 0-21 ft range, would you really have time to aim?



So I asked my CC instructor about what the story was on why Darrell taught point shooting, and he wrote back this story, which I quote here.

A brief story about Julio Santiago. Julio, a MN cop, was one of the original developers of night sights. They were an instant hit with law enforcement because so many shootings happen at night, in the dark. On the training range it was shown to dramaticly improve shooting scores. It went national, including to the FBI and other orgs.. Then Julio had his first shooting. He never saw the sights. After that experience, he interviewed over 70 LEO's who had been in shootouts and found the same stories with all of them. He did find ONE, a NYC cop, that saw the sights on the 1st shot, and not the rest. Sometimes officers DON'T EVEN SEE THE GUN! The event happens too quickly. There are some cases where the sights are seen, but that is not the norm. At minimum, you need to have time and distance on your side + not be in a panic response.

This is all old news. Do a search for names like Col. Rex Applegate, Fairburn & Sykes. This info has been well understood before WWII. What a lot of people don't realize is that the competion/bullseye shooting styles became popular training methods in the 20th century, and have resulted in an average of 90% MISS RATE for LE! Thats 9 of 10 shots missing a WHOLE HUMAN BODY! So what does that say for bullseye shooting? Darrell Mulroy has had 4 students fire their weapons with a 100% hit rate. Including shots in the dark.


The interesting thing to learn from this is that one of the developers of night sights, didn't see the sights when he had to shoot, and then started asking around what the experiences were of people who had been involved in shootings. Plus, the idea is not new. Here is a Link--> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari...-8&oe=UTF-8.
 

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I want to add something to the point-shooting vs aimed fire disscusion. There is not a hard division between the two. They are only points along a continuous line.



If you are 3 feet from the target you don't need aimed fire, you can shoot from retention. If you are at 7 yards you can use a flash sight picture and get good hits. If you are shooting at 15 yards you need a good sight picture and a front sight focus. If you have to hit at 75 yards you might want to go to a supported kneeling or prone position.



So you see what you need to see to make the hits. Train yourself to hit at all distances.



Thanks, Mark
 

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Even at 7 yds it's still not guaranteed you'll get to use the sights. It is good to learn

unsighted (it's still aimed) methods out to at least that distance. Our students fire unsigthed,

with no flashlight, out to 7 yrds in the dark and that's our BASIC CLASS 8) ! It surprises people just how well they are capable of shooting like that.

Good advice to train in both methods. I love the night sights and you never know if you just might get to use them!

Brent (Wallclouds instructor) pistolcraft



PS I would also urge ANYONE who carries a gun to also learn some empty hand skills. Don't just rely on the tool. If your hands not on it when you need it, you probably won't get to it!
 

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Pistolcraft said:
Howdy all,



I have been training in these matters for 15 years, and teaching for about a decade, Our training is accepted by many states (the right combination of states gets you 34 state carry) just to give a little background.

The problem here is the reactions to fright, there are significant changes in body chemistry when TSHTF. The chemical dump beats anything man has to offer, endorphins, adrenaline, cortisol, and more. These can shut down most of your senses. You will lose near vision and will also revert to binocular vision (the ability to focus with one eye is greatly reduced or eliminated), fine motor skills are lost due to vasoconstriction (narrowing of blood vessels), hearing is usually the first to go, and much more. Using sights requires focusing back and forth quickly on 3 objects - rear sight, front sight, and target. These changes will remove that ability in most civillian encounters. Too close, too fast. Most of these are over in 2 seconds, and if the gun is not in your hand when it starts you will likely not get to it in time. I have a lot of medical studies, shootout studies, and much other data to back this up. I am not looking to start arguments, just trying to help folks understand the complexity of this kind of thing. I love my streamlight, it's just not on my gun, it is the first weapon I pull, hopefully to blind them before I need a gun. (and hey, you can't get in much legal trouble for using it).



-Steve


I agree with Steve 100% I just went through my CCW course and this is exactly what the law enforcement instructor stated. NS are a must, if you don't have them, get them now... A flashlight is a must however, I prefer handhelds like the Surefire Defendor. If you have an advantage, like NS and a flashlight, would you give that up because of what someone might say in court. God lord, a strange man is in your house, you treat any attacker (threat) as a trained professional. Just my .02 cents



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Re:

I am a firm believer in weapons mounted lights and have several with one being an X200 Surefire on my Beretta and one a TLR-2 which is the light and laser combo. I have the TLR-2 on my 4566TSW and the intent is clear which is if a home invader breaks into my home and I have but one choice. He is blinded and dropped and I pray that event will never happen but I have to assume the absolute worst at that point.
 

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Night sights of some kind, a flashlight and or a rail mounted light on the nightstand are a must, not to mention common sense.
 
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