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Discussion Starter #1
2nd trip to the range this weekend with my m&p9 and discovered while shooting with both hands I was all over the target at 15 yards. I changed to shooting just with my right hand and hit the center of the target 7 times out of 17. I am a relatively new to handguns so I'm sure I did something wrong. By the way, My kids and I shot over 200 rounds without a hitch. I sure like my new gun. My 12 yr old son(who doesn't like to go to the range with me) hit the center of the target on his 3rd shot at 15 yards. The smile on his face was priceless! I now call him Bullseye Ben and I think he is hooked and his self esteem has skyrocketed. Any recommendations would be appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the responses. I do have large hands and used the largest backstrap. The web sites that were recommended by Donald Trump( sic )were very helpful. I just returned from my Chiropracter and he said my hips were off over an inch. Maybe that is what threw off my my shooting, after 1/2 hour of cracking and stretching by the Dr he said my hips were close to even. A few more Dr. visits should straighten me up. I will be at the range this weekend and will try the grip that was on the video and see how it goes. again thanks for the responses. I Love my M&P
 

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What about proper grip for the strong hand, what is the suggested way to position it on the grip when you grab the gun from holster? I read that the 2nd knuckle of the middle/social finger should align with the corner of the front of the grip (below the trig guard) so as not to overgrip, like a 'C' clamp. However if I do this, the back of my hand seems to go over the center of the back of the grip. It doesn't feel natural. It feels more natural to wrap my fingers (2nd knuckle) more towards the front of the grip. If I do this though where my 2nd knuckle is somewhat past the corner of the front grip (almost under the guard, which might appear as overgrip), my knuckle tends to rub the guard (like the glock knuckle problem).



chooch, you may have videos for this too?
 

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sherpa said:
What about proper grip for the strong hand, what is the suggested way to position it on the grip when you grab the gun from holster? I read that the 2nd knuckle of the middle/social finger should align with the corner of the front of the grip (below the trig guard) so as not to overgrip, like a 'C' clamp. However if I do this, the back of my hand seems to go over the center of the back of the grip. It doesn't feel natural. It feels more natural to wrap my fingers (2nd knuckle) more towards the front of the grip. If I do this though where my 2nd knuckle is somewhat past the corner of the front grip (almost under the guard, which might appear as overgrip), my knuckle tends to rub the guard (like the glock knuckle problem).



chooch, you may have videos for this too?
I'm not sure if I'm tracking with you. I got lost with all the knuckle talk.




You have to work with the hand size finger length God gave you. But basically, you want to grip the gun as high as possible (up underneath the beavertail) and wrap your fingers around the frontstrap right underneath the trigger guard. How far your fingers wrap around is where they end up. Your forearm should be in line with the slide. Your support hand should stack in front of the strong hand and make as much contact with teh frame as possible, as shown on the Todd Jarrett video.
 

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accuracy

Thanks SCFire!! That chart is sure to help me as well. I have seen a couple full size targets that have that info at various ranges but have failed to see any recently. Time to go shoot a few hundred more rounds!! Still love my m&p .40c!!!!
 

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Re: off target?

Book'emDano said:
Make sure you have both eyes open looking down range through your sights, also make sure to have your thumb on the slide for stability..


One eye open/ two eyes open....tight grip / loose grip....IPSC grip / thumbs crossed grip....etc.

All have nothing to do with accuracy.



Grip allows you to control the weapon during recoil...that's it. For those who think accuracy is related to your grip...guess you haven't seen anyone shoot a tight group holding the gun upside down, huh? Anyone know where I can find a video of this online for the non-believers? I might have to make one myself...

edit: here's a quick clip of it! about 40 secs in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB2IjENrtIo...roducts_id=3179





All that is nescessary to shoot one hole groups is to align the sights properly, and press the trigger w/o moving your sights. That is all one has to do to shoot accurately.



Your grip will not help you shoot any more accurately. Front sight focus, the slowest trigger pull you can muster...and dry fire practice paying ABOLSUTE attention to your front sight. That's all you need to do.



As for grip...the above links show some good things...here's a book I could recommend, too.



http://www.amazon.com/Surgical-Speed-Shoot...8252&sr=8-1[/url]
 

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Great info!



What about guides on follow-throughs or 'Calling Shots' for faster shooting? How are they learned and performed properly?
 

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sherpa said:
Great info!



What about guides on follow-throughs or 'Calling Shots' for faster shooting? How are they learned and performed properly?


Calling shots? Please explain. Follow through? Just look for your front sight again. As soon as the gun moves during recoil, find the front sight and put it back on the target.



The quickest way I know of to get good at speed, is to focus intently on going slow and smooth.



Hell, talk out loud and verbalize what you're doing when you grab your pistol, where your support hand goes, what you think of while you present your pistol, where your focus is, where your trigger finger contacts the trigger, how slowly you press the trigger, etc.



Go slow, but be consistent! That is the key. Consistency builds muscle memory, and muscle memory is the key to doing things quickly while being in total control.



Worry about speed, and you'll do nothing but fumble.



If your consistent in your training, you force yourself to shoot smoothly, and you focus on each and every shot...you'll get fast naturally. Once I started to slow down, got some good tips from folks, and focused on just being smooth...I got very quick. I'm no IPSC contender...but from open carry...I can go from my hands by my sides, out of the holster, and score an A Zone hit at 7 yards in just under 1 second. Going from concealment adds about a half-second onto that time. I only got here by focusing on going slow.
 

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synergy said:
[quote name='sherpa']Great info!



What about guides on follow-throughs or 'Calling Shots' for faster shooting? How are they learned and performed properly?


Calling shots? Please explain. Follow through? Just look for your front sight again. As soon as the gun moves during recoil, find the front sight and put it back on the target.



The quickest way I know of to get good at speed, is to focus intently on going slow and smooth.



Hell, talk out loud and verbalize what you're doing when you grab your pistol, where your support hand goes, what you think of while you present your pistol, where your focus is, where your trigger finger contacts the trigger, how slowly you press the trigger, etc.



Go slow, but be consistent! That is the key. Consistency builds muscle memory, and muscle memory is the key to doing things quickly while being in total control.



Worry about speed, and you'll do nothing but fumble.



If your consistent in your training, you force yourself to shoot smoothly, and you focus on each and every shot...you'll get fast naturally. Once I started to slow down, got some good tips from folks, and focused on just being smooth...I got very quick. I'm no IPSC contender...but from open carry...I can go from my hands by my sides, out of the holster, and score an A Zone hit at 7 yards in just under 1 second. Going from concealment adds about a half-second onto that time. I only got here by focusing on going slow.[/quote]



Some competition shooters use that term 'Call your shots' during competitions to be able to fire all targets with the least time. I think its related to 'Follow through' too. Someone told me before that it was immediately firing the 2nd shot as soon as the sight returns from recoil knowing that it will hit the target, without actually looking at the target. Something like the double taps of Todd Jarret in the video sent by Choochboost. It might have to do with focusing on the sight's position relative to the target as sooon as they return from recoil. If I wait for my sights though, it takes a few seconds to align them again with the target. I might be doing it wrong. I was just hoping there were guides/links that would help in developing the skill, eventually leading to faster shooting (2ble taps) for competitions. I agree too with your suggestions. Developing the skill should start with slow movements and developing muscle memory.
 

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Calling your shot simply means being aware of exactly where your front sight was when you broke a shot. That feedback tells you whether you got a good hit (and can go on to your next target) or a bad hit/miss (and need to make another shot).



While it's true that you need to get all the kinks out of your movement to be fast, you can't just get smoother infinitely. An overweight guy can improve his sprint speed by jogging every day for three months, but eventually he's going to plateau ... and the only way he'll improve his speed is by pushing himself to run faster.



The same is true with shooting. First, you need a foundation in marksmanship fundamentals. Can you shoot a one-hole group at 3yd? Can you put 100% of your shots onto a 3x5 card at 7yd on demand, every time? If so, then your grasp of marksmanship is adequate to work on smoothing out your movement. Work on eliminating excess movement. Work on doing things without fumbles or stutters in your action. Work until the act of drawing and firing a round is just a single thought process instead of a series of steps.



But eventually, you'll have achieved an economy of motion that can't really be improved upon, or at least not significantly. At that point, the only way to get faster is to push yourself to go faster. Eventually, you need to get a little out of control so that your visual skills and marksmanship skills can "catch up" to your physical speed.



Shameless self-promotion alert: I've got an article on my website about improving speed shooting, you can read it here.
 

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ToddG said:
Shameless self-promotion alert: I've got an article on my website about improving speed shooting, you can read it here.


Todd's article would be a very good read for folks interested in the speed/ accuracy continuum.



In a way, Todd and I agree...though I'm sure the message comes across differently.



I very obviously think that one should focus on just being smooth, especially while developing skills initially. Your draw, your basic marksmanship skills, finding your sights...etc. But Todd makes an excellent point...you will need to push yourself to learn.



Once your draw, presentation, and shot placement is ingrained in your muscle memory...then you'll have to work it faster and harder. I don't really think this advice is relevant to the OP yet...who is working on building his foundation now; but to others following this thread, it sure could be very applicable.



Todd's right, you need to miss along the way to see where you need to improve.



I've never been that great at Bill Drills. :oops: Guess I know what I need to work on!
 

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Properly done, a Bill Drill is a great technique for building the skills necessary to push your static shooting speed. I was having this discussion with a Range Officer at the NRA just last night. The important thing to remember when doing a Bill Drill is use the whole target (or scoring zone). A sheet of paper or 8-9" plate at 7yd is perfect for this. When you see white beyond your front sight, you fire the gun. You don't try to line everything up perfectly for each shot. If you send six rounds from one end of that plate to another, it's still six hits.



I tend to use a 5x8 card for most of my speed work, and if a round so much as clips the edge, I consider that a hit. If I want to work on shooting a small group, I use a target appropriate to that (3x5 cards or bullseyes). If I'm working on speed, my goal is to break the shot as soon as I have an acceptable sight picture, which is a lot faster than a perfect sight picture.



Holy cow, have I hijacked this thread or what? Sorry ...
 

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Thanks ToddG. I think it was me who hijacked the thread when I diverted the topic to Calling shots!
Sorry about that.



I've now got a better idea on what it means, and how to develop it. Now need more range sessions and ammo. BTW, great info you've got in your site.




Thanks to all who shared, good points.
 
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