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Discussion Starter #1
Didn't know where else to put this, so here it is.



Anyways, lately I've been considering carrying pepper spray along with the M&P9c. After seeing people say stuff like, "If all you carry is a hammer then every problem starts looking like a nail," I've decided it would be a good idea. I realize not every altercation/situation would call for a couple Gold Dot's tearing through someone's chest/head, and a nice blast of "Holy mother of God my face is on fire" liquid would be a better alternative.



Can anyone recommend a good reliable brand to carry? I want something strong that will cover some distance, yet small and easily concealable. I want it to be able to bring a grown ass man to his knees begging me to stop. I also want my wife to be able to use it too. Also, when looking at, and comparing, different sprays what should I be looking at as far as ingredients to determine the strength?



Thanks gentlemen!
 

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josh said:
Can anyone recommend a good reliable brand to carry? I want something strong that will cover some distance, yet small and easily concealable.
I have Fox Labs spray. Comp-Tac makes some clips and holsters for it.



I want it to be able to bring a grown butt man to his knees begging me to stop. I also want my wife to be able to use it too.
Don't assume it will have this result. It may not. For a ccw application your best tactic would be to spray and run away, hoping it provides at least enough of a distraction that you are able to vacate.



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Discussion Starter #3
choochboost said:
[quote name='josh']Can anyone recommend a good reliable brand to carry? I want something strong that will cover some distance, yet small and easily concealable.
I have Fox Labs spray. Comp-Tac makes some clips and holsters for it.



I want it to be able to bring a grown butt man to his knees begging me to stop. I also want my wife to be able to use it too.
Don't assume it will have this result. It may not. For a ccw application your best tactic would be to spray and run away, hoping it provides at least enough of a distraction that you are able to vacate.[/quote]



I was actually looking at the sprays on COMP-TAC's site before I made this thread. Was looking at the holsters for them too. Looks like a good combo.



That would be the plan, to spray and run. And if it didn't have the intended result and the person came running after me/her the gun would be available as a backup.
 

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My only fear with the pepper spray is that in a self-defense situation (which is why we CCW) if you fire your weapon the natural question will be "why didn't you spray him? You shot the poor guy when you could have just sprayed him!" (disregarding the fact that if you spray him you are just as likely to get the spray in your face too which may make defending yourself or escaping very difficult) If your not a cop you have no obligation to use any type of "ladder" of force. Either you feel your life is threatened or not. If your life is threatened you MUST go for your gun first. If not, you may be inclined to spray someone when you should be getting away from the situtation or shooting! If you can't get away, then YOU ARE THREATENED and you should be getting your gun out. I relate this from my current dilemma. I am a black belt in TKD. If I shoot someone they may argue that I should have been able to disarm them or fight them without using a weapon. If I fight them, they may get an oppurtunity to get my weapon away from me or I might hurt them and the courts will say I used excessive force because of my training. Its a stupid world we live in. Where the bad guys can bring evil upon the good guys and the good guys get in trouble if the bad guy bit off more than he can chew! Personally, I believe your best weapon is your mind. Train yourself and become proficient with your weapon. Be ready and able to identify a threat and ready and able to use your weapon if necassary. I think your heart is in the right place though.



Actually, I'm trying to think of a situation when I would spray someone. You wouldn't want to do it if they were too close because you would get yourself as well. If the are far enough away to spray, then run. If they follow. It's time to get serious.
 

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jon_in_wv said:
if you spray him you are just as likely to get the spray in your face
This is not true. When using pepper spray you are not "just as likely to get the spray in your face".



If your not a cop you have no obligation to use any type of "ladder" of force. Either you feel your life is threatened or not. If your life is threatened you MUST go for your gun first. If not, you may be inclined to spray someone when you should be getting away from the situtation or shooting! If you can't get away, then YOU ARE THREATENED and you should be getting your gun out.
The OP is speaking of a situation that does not call for the use of lethal force.



Actually, I'm trying to think of a situation when I would spray someone. You wouldn't want to do it if they were too close because you would get yourself as well. If the are far enough away to spray, then run. If they follow. It's time to get serious.
A situation where an aggressive, but apparently unarmed, individual is advancing towards you does not generally call for a lethal response.



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Last time I checked for my wife's annual (or so) resupply, Fox Labs was still the most potent stuff available to non-LEO. It's what I've gotten for her for years, and I'll be doing it again shortly.
 

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Spraying someone who is determined to attack you, guess what?? You ARE going to get it on you. This is experience NOT something I read. You can say you won't but thats bunk. If you spray him and he gets his hands on you, your hit. Not to mention wind, splatter, etc....It isn't ALWAYS going to happen but the chances are good, and I don't take chances with my hide.



If an unarmed man is determined to attack me I would rather NOT have him covered in pepper spray that is going to blind me as well as him. The best defense, if you are not capable of unarmed defense, is to get away. If you CAN'T get away, then he is most likely going to get his hands on you and you are going to get the OC all over you. He is going to be blinded, is he going to run away?? No, he is most likely going to grab you and beat the snot out of you. OC is NOT going to make him drop to the ground and sob for your mercy. Its amazing that so many people will tell me that my 9mm (or all handguns for that matter ) is inadequate for defense but pepper spray will drop a man in his tracks.



Like I said, I have 12 years experience working in our countries prisons. Pepper Spray works great for us and we use it often. It will NOT STOP A DETERMINED ATTACKER. It will only make a person who is being a jerk, uncomfortable enough that he wants to stop doing what he is doing or it will blind him long enough for you to do what you should have done in the first place, get away. Thats it. Add, alcohol, drugs, mental instability, etc to the mix and OC loses even more effectiveness. I am mearly relaying that with 12 years of experience using the stuff and seeing its effects on criminals. I would not trust it on the street. I trust my hands to fight, my feet to run, and my 9mm if the other two fail.



And so you know. I'm 5'10" tall 240lbs. I lift weights, I'm in shape, and I have 10 years of training in Taekwondo, and Hopkido. I have used force many times over the years. You can fight when you are in pain, and when you are blinded. A crook who has lived a hard life on the streets has probably been in many more fights in his life than you have. He may have even been sprayed a time or two before (maybe many times if he has been incarcerated). He is going to handle the effects of it much better than you IF (and when) you get it all over yourself when you are trying to fight him. If you are capable of running or fighting than run or fight. If you cannot run away, and you are not capable of fighting him, then guess what, your life is in danger. I'm not reaching for pepper spray when that happens. The choice is yours, I am just trying to relay what experience I have in the matter because it's something I have a lot of experience in. Take it for what its worth.



If OC was so great wouldn't we be posting this on a Pepper Spray board instead of a gun board??

I even searched the internet for videos of attackers repelled by OC. Couldn't find any. Plenty of videos of peaceful protesters gettin sprayed. They didn't seem overly distressed by it. They certainly weren't dropped by it. If it won't drop a 20 something college girl, why will it stop an attacker? In the prison, we use a LARGE sprayer. It is sprayed in bursts into an enclosed cell, often numerous times before a guy gives up the fight. Even then they will sometimes continue to fight after they have been sprayed and sat in a room SATURATED in OC. hmmm.

Holy crap I'm getting long winded. Sorry, I'm done.
 

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Jon, since I quoted you earlier I assume your last post was in somewhat directed at me. You explained very well that OC is not the magic man stopper. Too many expect too much from the effects of pepper spray. You and I agree on that - see my first post in this thread. My point was that deploying OC spray will not automatically result in it affecting you as well.



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I have never stated that it is "automatic". Nor have you offered any arguement or evidence or history of experience or expertise that would make me question any of my statements in the least.



My intention was to point out to the poster that it is very, very likely and the effectiveness of the pepper spray does not make it a good alternative for self defense. Twelve years of using it and I have NEVER bought any for myself. It is AN alternative if you are unable or unwilling to carry a handgun but if the handgun is available than carry that and leave the pepper spray at home. If you absolutely MUST have a non-lethal weapon I would suggest a high voltage stun gun. Its not hard to find examples of the effectiveness of Tasers, for example.



Remember, your best weapon is between your ears.
 

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jon_in_wv said:
I have never stated that it is "automatic". Nor have you offered any arguement or evidence or history of experience or expertise that would make me question any of my statements in the least.
I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest here. I have not worked in corrections for 12 years, but I have used OC spray a number of times even at close range and have never been affected by it. I agree there is always that possibility and one needs to be mindful of that.



My intention was to point out to the poster that it is very, very likely and the effectiveness of the pepper spray does not make it a good alternative for self defense.
A LE application of OC spray is different than a person on the street with a CCW looking for a non-lethal option. The "spray and run away" approach is one of the few ways I see it as an option. In this type of a situation, unless the wind blows it back I don't think it is likely to affect you. But whatever...we see it differently, that's okay.



Twelve years of using it and I have NEVER bought any for myself. It is AN alternative if you are unable or unwilling to carry a handgun but if the handgun is available than carry that and leave the pepper spray at home.
Not every problem is a nail and not every solution is a hammer. A civilian does not have the liberty, at least in my state, to use or even draw a firearm in a situation that does not call for lethal force.



If you absolutely MUST have a non-lethal weapon I would suggest a high voltage stun gun. Its not hard to find examples of the effectiveness of Tasers, for example.
Just as some shake off the effects of OC, I'm sure you're aware of cases where tasers were similarly ineffective. But that does not mean they are a bad force option.



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are you even allowed to carry tasers?? for some reason I thought you had to be LEO/licensed for them or would that count under your CCW?? I know you can have stun guns but like you said you can argue the effectiveness of them and you have to be really close obviously if you're going to touch somebody with the stun gun..I'd rather be able to fire some prongs into the guy from several feet away.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BYr1Qm3KyIs



http://youtube.com/watch?v=3gqMT0Ek8ac
 

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I just watched a clip on a show last night where it looked like a guy was hit in the leg by a tazer as he was running away, and was still bought down. It was probably just the view that made it look that way, but it speaks volumes for the effectiveness of tazers. The guy dropped after a three second burst from it. I know that it probably doesn't work on druggies as well, but a tazer's effects are more physiological than pain induced. The human body does funny things when large amounts of electricity is pumped through it. The biggest problem with Tazers right now is the cost, though I think Kimber makes a palm-sized one.



Upon reviewing the play, I find that the Kimber Item I spoke of is the Life-Act OC unit. My mistake.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
While me and a few friends were driving back from a party one night we saw a guy running down the street away from the direction of a police car that was parked way up the road with its lights on. About a block up was a cop running in the same direction flagging us down. We pulled up and he asked if we'd give him a ride(he was too far from his car at this point). We obliged, and went after the guy, and cut him off. Officer jumped out, screamed at the guy for a minute while pointing the laser on his taser at him, and the drunk guy charged him. I'll never forget that night - my first time seeing a man tasered was something to behold. Ended up zappin' him three more times before more officers arrived. Good stuff.





I remember a buddy had a stun gun at his house when we were in high school. That thing was useless. We use to just shock each other with it, and it barely even did anything.
 

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I think pepper spray would be a good add to your normal CCW.



There are potential situations that would call for some kind of action from someone that wouldn't mandate using a gun - where pepper spray would be called for.

Of course I'd still recommend your having your pistol handy just in case it escalates to a point where it's called for.



Examples: http://www.wkrg.com/servlet/Satellite?c=MG...ticle&path=



Can't find the link for the video now but it showed a punk beating an older man (WW Vet) in his head during a car jacking - no visible weapons - people close by doing nothing.



I'm sure there are several other examples in the news or some you can think of where shooting would not have been called for but a good dose of pepper or for me a can of Freeze Plus P would be very appropriate.
 

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jon_in_wv said:
I'm 5'10" tall 240lbs. I lift weights, I'm in shape, and I have 10 years of training in Taekwondo, and Hopkido.
Jon, I think your size and background puts you in a very different position than some of the members here. It sounds like you are one of the last guys to have someone pick you out for a fight. In the small chance that did happen, you know you can block a sucker punch from a big guy. I am 5'11", in shape, but also 60 lbs lighter than you. When you are standing in line for dinner, you can't always have a 20 foot perimeter of free space around you.



Regarding your concerns "why didn't you spray him? You shot the poor guy when you could have just sprayed him!"... If an attacker HAS a weapon, then there was no need to attempt to use pepper spray and no need to ask the question that you posed. If an attacker does not have a weapon, pepper spray might be the first option.



A scenario I can imagine....

Standing inline or outside, waiting to be seated at a restaurant with a couple girlfriends. Let's say that a bigger guy (maybe drinking) starts becoming rude to one of the girls and I suggest "she's not interested". He is unarmed. He can push me around and even punch me in the face (maybe several times) before lethal force is justified. Forget that a person can be seriously injured for life from 1 hit to the head, but just knocking me unconscious for a minute leaves my gun available to his taking. I never NEED to use anything that I carry, but it's there if the situation calls for it. Pepper spray may not be the ultimate deterant, but it certainly may help us to escape. AND using pepper spray might mean that I avoid the next year in court and the following several years in jail for unjustified homicide charges.



That is just my view on carrying pepper spray. BTW, I carry Fox Labs. I have a 2 oz spray that I carry in a jacket pocket, the Miska Clip from Comp-tac, and a key chain spray. I only carry one of them at a time.
 

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Pepper Spray

I don't routinely carry pepper spray when going my about daily activities. That's normally left to my M&P 40c or my S&W 340 Scandium. The only time I normally do carry spray is when I'm biking or jogging. That's also about the only time that I use my fanny pack. My thoughts are that it would be used most likily if I had a problem with dogs.

For more dangerous encounters, I also have my snubbie in the butt pack.

The brand of pepper spray I have is "SprayGard". It is sold at one of the local gun shops in my area.
 

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Point taken Shooter. I guess I will concede saying only that I personally feel that OC spray is not that effective for use against someone bent on hurting you, if he gets to you after you have sprayed him you are very likely to suffer the effects as well. That said, I think it is a WONDERFUL idea for the dogs ( I carry a P32 for that) or other wild animals. If you are prepared to properly use the OC spray (which I maintain would be "spray and run") than you are better guarded than with dirty looks and foul language. Both of which I am also adept at.




I still believe the best weapon is between your ears and both you and Choochboost (love to know what that means) have given it a great deal of thought which already gives you a great edge over whomever should choose to cross your path.
 

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I don't know the laws in other states but the guys I ride with (LEO's when I pull Auxiliary PD Time) said it's legal for anyone here to carry what they carry. Mobile and other PD's around here carry Freeze Plus P. It's pepper and something else. They said where some people can get by the pepper spray - they don't know of anyone who can get by Freeze Plus P.



Anyone can go in to our local Police Security supply store and buy it.



Of course it'd be a bad idea to use it if someone just rushed and beat you to the parking space you've been waiting for.



It WOULD be good to use - say - if you come across someone beating the dog snot outta their wife in the parking lot, someone beating an old lady up trying to grab her purse - spray them from a distance to stop them and then call the PD.
 
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