[Kazman]

Hey -



New to pistol shooting. Tried out my M&P 40 at the range the other day, couldn't hit a 8 1/2 x 11 paper at 25 yards. Ticked off, I talked to the gun shop, and they said that 25 yds was a tough shot to make. Where I come from 25 yds is really dang close.



I'm used to long distance rifle, and the 25 yard zero standard for the M4 / M16, which is a 1/4" group on a 1" target at 25 yards.



So my question, is there a standard for pistol qualification / zero? Like what size target, distance and group size?



Thanks

 

[chefdog]

Kazman,

WHile i'm just a recreational shooter everyone i've talked to and all that i've read suggest that for a combat pistol you should expect at least a 4" group at 25 yards. I believe that's the standard that the US military uses when evaluating new handguns. If a pistol can't match that standard, it's out of the running.

Maybe have someone who you know is a good shot (range officer?) give it a try and see how it shoots for them. YOu might just need some time to get used to it. Try switching the backstraps while shooting to see if it helps. I usually only shoot out to about 15 yards or so, and not at bullseye targets so i can't say how my pistol compares, but when i really concentrate on trigger control it definitely shoot to POI.



Good luck.

 

[IAShooter]

Practice, half the fun of pistol shooting is

the challenge.

 

[TexanAviator]

New to pistol shooting.

Could you ride a bike the first time you got on one?



Buy some ammo and hit the range. Take a class if you can as well.

 

[Walker]

[quote name='Kazman']



New to pistol shooting.

Could you ride a bike the first time you got on one?



Buy some ammo and hit the range. Take a class if you can as well.

[/quote]



I agree, I was horrible the first couple of times at the range, getting better everyday until a buddy of mine grabbed my full sized and made a fool of me today. Practice, practice and more practice...

 

[Jeff 9mm M&P]

Ditto from good comments above from others.



I am new to pistol shooting also, its a lot more difficult than rifle shooting I have found. I kind of compare it to my golf game

It takes a lot of practice to have consistent accurate shots. One day I am really accurate, the next week it seems like I am shooting with a bent barrell.



My problem currently with shooting my M&P is that my grip is too tight and may be flinching sending my groups consistently below the target.



Read up on pistol shooting, do a lot of dry fire practices. Don't become frustrated even though its easy to do, its not the pistol, its the operator. We all have room for improvement.

 

[G56]

couldn't hit a 8 1/2 x 11 paper at 25 yards.

About 50% of the people can't hit it either, and not all of those are new to pistol shooting. You would be surprised how many Police Cadets that fail to qualify, that's to put 80% of their shots in a bigger area than what you were shooting at, and those guys have had training, but will require additional training to meet the minimum standards.



Practice-practice-practice!

 

[Jester]

Comparing an M4 to a pistol of any flavor is bad, or rifle to pistol caliber, 4 times as accurate with the rifle.



start at 7 yards, and increase the distance.

Hey -



New to pistol shooting. Tried out my M&P 40 at the range the other day, couldn't hit a 8 1/2 x 11 paper at 25 yards. Ticked off, I talked to the gun shop, and they said that 25 yds was a tough shot to make. Where I come from 25 yds is really dang close.



I'm used to long distance rifle, and the 25 yard zero standard for the M4 / M16, which is a 1/4" group on a 1" target at 25 yards.



So my question, is there a standard for pistol qualification / zero? Like what size target, distance and group size?



Thanks

 

[Colt]

Also remember that the guy at the gunshop wants you to continue to buy things from him so calling you a bad shot, or inferring it by saying you need to practice more, would have been a bad thing.

- Colt

 

[Walker]

Also remember that the guy at the gunshop wants you to continue to buy things from him so calling you a bad shot, or inferring it by saying you need to practice more, would have been a bad thing.

- Colt

Oh damn, not going there... :wink:

 

[Kazman]

Thanks for the feedback guys.



Yeah, I sure know about the practice ... everyone on my Team would get 400 rounds every Saturday to expend at the range. Nice way to spend a Saturday morning!



Tried a 1911 once, thought the pistol range was 25 yards. Couldn't hit anything with it, so I opted to carry the extra weight in the M203.



Only had a box of 100 Rem 180 gr's with me the other day, so I saved a few to compare against the WWB 165's. Trying to keep the cost of shooting to around $.20 / ea, as the big guns want the $1 / ea stuff. Hoping I'm not buying too cheap of ammo. Will try a couple more brands, as recommended in this site.



I also agree with the "shooter dependant" thinking, but I will also get this piece as accurized as possible, since I don't like how the trigger feels.



The guy at the gun shop was retired, I think he was just being nice, but it's still a game to me.

 

[Kazman]

Found this target while snooping around:



http://glockfaq.com/targets/olympics/25m_r...fire_pistol.pdf

 

[DixieThunder 24]

Like everyone else said just keep practicing. And start dry fire practicing at home with some snap caps and then at the range mix in a couple snap caps with live rounds to see how much you flinch or jerk. I did that last time and I was shocked at how bad I flinched, and it seemed to help a bunch too. Just stay with it, it'll come to you.

 

[Sigman]

Practice makes perfect. And like someone said start at the 7 yd mark and work your way out from there. I've only shot my 40c once and the first shots were bad, bad, bad. After a few more I got use to the trigger pull and gun itself and started to acually get a group going. There's no shame in a close target. 25 yards is a tough shot unless you Jack Baurer.

 

[TAZ]

As has been stated before 4" at 25 yds is minimum standard for DoD trials. There are also a lot of makers that report 1", 1.5" guarantees for their high end guns. one thing you need to know is that those standards are usually for the gun and only the gun. Shots are either from a ransom rest or equivalent or from a supported bench; not off hand. Granted there are a few shooters out there that can shoot that well, but I am willing to bet they have HUGE calluses on their hands from the gazillions of practice rounds they shoot each year.



Pistol, shotgun, carbine and rifle are all very different animals, so just cause you can shoot carbine well, doens necessarily mean you will be good with a handgun or visa versa. Handgun is the hardest to master cause the short sight radius and truly offhand nature of the stance. There is little to no way in hell youre going to get any bone support. Also you are taught to stick that heavy object far away from the body making your muscles work even harder. If youre new to it or not that practiced in it, those muscles will fatigue FAST and your shooting will suffer.



If youre new to handguns, start short 3 yds and work your way out to 7 then 15 and so on. Once you master one range move to the next. The CHL course of fire here in TX shoots mainly at 3 and 7 yds with a couple of strigns thrown in at 15 yds. There is no requirement for going past that. Bullseye is about a 10" diamter area at COM of a life size sillouette.

 

[raz-0]

99% certain it's you and not the gun. At worst, it is you AND the gun.



go here



http://www.piedmontnrainstructors.org/ShootingInfo.htm



get the diagnostic target for your handedness and print one/some/photocopy/whatever to get yourself a small pile of them.



Put it at 7 yards. see what you are doing. PRacticing to get better by shooting at a target you can't even reliably hit will just waste ammo and possibly cement bad habits.

 

[Pappy1600]

Our qual course begins from the 25 yrd line and works in from there to 15yrds, 7 yrds and 3 yrds. More than likely it's you. Sight alignment and trigger control is key here, you want to focus on the fron sight and the target should be a blur when you squeeze the trigger, We use standard B-27 targets.

 

[Kazman]

Thanks again ...



With your advice, I went out to the indoor range today, fired the Rem 180's @ 7 yrds, 4 rounds, one hit the X, the other 3 grouped in the 10 ring, all touching. The group was in the 7 o'clock position. I was satified with the grouping, the "flier" was a lucky shot IMO. Left the Rem's alone, satisfied.



Switched to WWB 165's, less control, low 7 o'clock - 7 ring. Target was a 11" circle the range had as their house target.



Expended 85 of the WWB (left 15 for future comparo tests) at 10 yards, all were hits, but quite a large group. Couldn't resist a rapid fire drill to the pace of: fire, fire, fire, fire once or twice.



There was a guy a couple lanes down w/ the center of his target missing, so I asked him if he would mind firing my gun. He did, w/o practice he grouped 5 rounds low in the 10 ring.



He said the same thing you guys said, keep practicing, and instead of pre-loading my arms in anticipation of the shot to have the shot "suprise me". A looser grip elevated my shooting.



Overall satisfied today, but will put the Rem's at the top of my ammo list.



May be able to get to the range tomorrow if I can get more ammo.

 

[Kazman]

Edited:



Found these targets from Hoppe's:



NRA B-25:



http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=498059

NRA B-27:



http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=670208

This looks like the spec I was looking for: NRA 50' 12" x 20", which is confirmed by you guys.



While I'm waiting for them to arrive, I made a homemade version using a poster board and a 8" sticker, all hits were in the chest cavity, which is what I'd call good for a pistol / side arm.



Interestingly, my dead on shots were one-handed straight out from my side. Looks like I'm way more accurate one-handed. I guess I will keep after the one-handed if that's all it takes.

 

[chefdog]

I've found a CHEAP and effective target in the form of dessert sized paper plates from Giant (100 for $1.50) with an orange sticker in the middle. I like them because it's easy to see your hits and the plate is a good size equivalent to COM on most targets. I usually will put up five plates on a backing and shoot 5 shot groups at each one. Slowing down during practice has helped my shooting a lot in the last month, i've started loading only 10 rounds in each magazine at a time to force myself to slow down. The guy at the range was right about the grip too, relaxing the gun in your hand seems odd, but it helps a lot with trigger control. Good luck with your shooting.