[SquireSCA]

Ricky, Mike and others.



Have what one would call a "Spirited discussion" over at GT in the non-Glocking section concerning guns like the XD and M&P.



A few posters have equated the XD and M&P series to "value guns that are barely better than Hipoint or Keltec".



One of their reasons for claiming thing, apart from ignorance, seems to be that neither the XD nor the M&P has a large presence in national competition, and that because the Glock has more marketshare and more of the LEO market, that the Glock must therefore be a higher quality, and better pistol.



Rebuttal?



I was only in IDPA for a short time and it has been like 4 years since I went. I am not sure what the current landscape is for the XD and M&P as far as competitive use.



Can you provide any info, or any knowledge based on your experiences with either pistol?



And anyone else, please chime in as well.



Thanks!

 

[raz-0]

Lets see. First year out, the M&P has made a major showing at the IDPA nationals.



USPSA rethought their production gun requirements over the M&P and XD .45.



The XD with a trigger job has Glock competitors whining about cheating (not the GOOD ones mind you, well not most of them), I imagine the M&P will be the same if not worse as it has the same potential to be light and smooth but more potential for being non-mushy.





As for LEO presence, it looks like the M&P is at least guaranteed a large cut of the LEO market already owned by S&W. This is not an inconsiderable presence. Not to mention that betwwen capacity and pricing, they are poised to go toe to toe with glock and beretta on contracts. Departments need a justification for new sidearms besides wear and tear most of the time. This usually means new caliber, but I suspect ergonomics may be used a lot. And of the major suppliers, H&K, beretta, S&W, and SIG all think it matters. Glock is the only major holdout on that feature, which may mean they lose contracts that need to have some BS justification to make it past the beancounters.



Then you have the technology.



the glock "good" points.



-Glocks are polymer. So are the XD and M&P.

-Glocks are striker fired. So are the XD and M&P.

-Glocks make a big deal about using a minimal number of parts in the action. The XD is more complicated, but an M&P without a magazine disconnect may very well be less complicated.

-Glocks will fire when dirty. So will the M&P. I have no idea about the XD. The M&P takes basically the same precaustions against fouling from dirt as the glock.

-high capacity in a smaller package. The XD doesn't quite make this one, but the M&P is arguably better fitting glock 22 capacity in a gun just slightly larger than the g23.

-glocks have magic tennifer coating that makes bdguys cringe in fear. M&P and XD now have an equivalent coating. M&P's coating that goes over it appears to actually be a bit more durable than the glock one. Can't speak to XD's overcoating.



The "BAD" glock technology.



-has no active safety. One can argue the XD is slightly better here, but the M&P is the same.

-Blocky grip and bad ergonomics. The XD improves on it with a better block. The M&P has adjustable grip straps and actually had a human hand in mind while shaping it.

-Very unsupported barrel in .40. The XD and M&P both address this.

-dont like the front sight method of installation. XD and M&P both use a standard dovetail to mount the front sight.



However, Tommy Lee jones has never endorsed the XD or M&P as a "real gun" which must mean it, l;ike every other non-glock is a "sissy-pistol".



Oddly enough people don't seem to like having sissy pistols pointed at them.

 

[knut_the_viking]

Couldn't find the discussion thread, can you post a link?

 

[noway]

very well said



And I would also add the stery M/S series guns in that list minus the safety and adjustable grips.



But it also has dovetail site groove

tennifer treatment

striker operated

smaller than the std equal size glock

has more parts but not by alot and still simple and non complicated



What it doesn't have are in market shares in LEAs in the states

nor does it have any hollywood movies actors endorsemente eithers

Just like when the glocks came on the market and getting the public to accept them, the M&P/XD/Steyrs/and futures guns, will have to endure the same hurdles. It should be easier since polymer and firearms are very common nowaday vrs when Glock-AUS 1st introduce this technology.



I would also be te 1st to say that I too was part of the crowd to never ever buy a plastic toy gun. Now I have a drawer full of them

 

[ToolMaker]

A few posters have equated the XD and M&P series to "value guns that are barely better than Hipoint or Keltec".

The M&P is targeted directly at the Glock’s presence in Law Enforcement. I doubt they are real concerned about the public market public right now because the public will just be a rubber stamp for whatever the cops are using. (That is what this market is about; not competition handguns) Smith & Wesson is playing Glock’s game of selling based on price instead of quality; and the Glocksters don’t like it. Not that the M&P isn’t a quality weapon, but price will trump quality every time in this market.



How does the XD keep getting mentioned when the discussion is about the LEO market? I have never heard of any PD considering this as a duty weapon; are there any? The XD is made by IM Metal in Croatia. It is the old HS2000. Springfield didn’t have anything to do battle in the low end market, so they started importing this weapon. They put the Springfield name on it; added $100 to the price and it was a success.



I would concede that a higher presence in national competition would indicate a higher quality firearm. I find it laughable that people are comparing a gun that has been on the scene in the U.S. for over 20 years with one that has been out for 10 months. S&W should be proud. Let’s see how Glock does at maintaining the 20 year market share they have.

 

[Puffy]

Apparently Toolmaker is a mindreader!

Everything he said+1.



I'm converting Glook owners one at a time. The feel of my M&P vs their black 2x4 that shoots bullets.

:wink:

 

[SquireSCA]

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&amp...mp;pagenumber=1

 

[Ricky T]

Don't argue with koolaide drinkers

Ernest Langdon and Julie Goloski shot M&Ps at the IDPA National this year and finished high in their classes, Julie won the Ladies trophy. But then again, Julie also won with a grock.

 

[Jhp147]

There was a thread (I think on this board) a while back about brand loyalty. I may be as guilty as anyone, but I actually WON a Glock 17 with a hot-rodded trigger, and sold it cheap after a half-dozen dry fires. They are just NOT for me, but they do engender a lot of loyalty to some people. One of our guys tried my M&P, bought one, and let two others in his unit try it out. He told me that these two officers were thinking of getting Glocks are now going to buy M&Ps, but one of the Glock guy is just 100% loyal to Glock and likes it, hates the M&P. I quit getting into the gun vs. gun argument, I think that brand loyalty and subjective viewpoint (and even whether you are right or left handed!) make it wasted air. I just tell guys what I like about a certain piece of equipment and let them make up their own mind. No damage to me no matter what they pick. I have 3 "favorite" gun types for three purposes, but a .45 M&P (especially with no flahlight rack, like the Arnisandy photoshop version) could bring it down to one or two at most.

 

[bronicadave]

I'm watching out my office window and at least 20 Chevrolets go by for every Mercedes I see. That must mean the Chevy is higher quality, right? Popularity and quality should not be confused. Popularity is a result of sales and marketing efforts more than a statement of quality. The H&K PM7 must be a really lousy weapon because I have never seen one carried by a LEO or at my local range. Budweiser must be the best beer because they sell more of that than Heineken.

 

[Jhp147]

bronicadave, that's right...

Also, people don't buy their personal beer or cars on the bid system. Police departments do, and "cheaper" is often a deciding factor. Thus, one of Glock's big points-cheaper (and they work, I do not argue that), which is what any department and many cops want. The company says, "Cops love us because we're the best, so buy us"...when the truth may be closer to "agencies love us because we're cheap but we want you to just assume we are better, too, and buy us."

With all apologies to Glock people, I don't deny they work, are simple to work on and with, and all the stuff you like about them.

 

[snscott]

I can understand brand loyalty and the comparison to sports teams, etc. What I don't understand is why the Glockers seem to have such a disproportionately large percentage in their ranks of people who are absolutely venomous when it comes to any other handgun, no matter what. I don't see that same mentality exhibited on other forums (like this one). Glockers will sit right there and trash a gun that they admit they have never even held before ("... and never will!" they are downright proud to announce

). That level of rabid and sometimes irrational support does not make sense to me.



Why don't we see this phenomenon with other brand fans (at least I haven't)? I mean, the level of civility and intelligence, or lack thereof, displayed so often by Glockers in these types of threads, more than anything else, makes me not want to ever get a Glock just because I don't want to be mistaken as being part of that crowd with that reputation. :wink: And I have nothing bad to say about the Glock pistol.

 

[raz-0]

What I don't understand is why the Glockers seem to have such a disproportionately large percentage in their ranks of people who are absolutely venomous when it comes to any other handgun, no matter what. I don't see that same mentality exhibited on other forums (like this one).

I guess you never visited the 1911 forums then.

 

[Jester]

I'd like to put these brand battles to a rest. We all know the selling points of both, and by searching here we can find at least 2 other threads like this one. I'm happy that this was kept positive, but I'm afraid that in the future this will bring the haters on this board to start stuff, like it happens on the AR boards.





If and when this type of post happens again I'll politely tell them to search in the forums topics like this one, and then lock it so it goes no further.



I'd apreciate it if members of this board would please keep it respectful on other boards defending the M&P.



I'm leaving this thread open for any closing remarks that anyone else would have.



Thanks,

Jester

 

[Jhp147]

The more I am around more people of more skill levels with more handguns, the more I am convinced that some may be right, some may be wrong, but mostly they are just different. A shooter's appreciation of a gun is HIGHLY subjective. The minor points about some guns that I dislike may mean nothing to another shooter...I'm not wrong, he's not wrong, we are just different. It's like taste in food...or women, dare I say. There is just more than one way to be right. Then, my theory is that I (or other people) get my (or your) ego wrapped up in the brand or type decision, and if somebody disagrees with me, horrors, maybe they are right, and I DON'T have the best gun for the job. And if I pick the WRONG gun, holster, or whatever, they must be SMARTERER than me, right? Nobody wants to think that, so they defend their choice to the death. I try hard to say "This is what is different about the two guns we are comparing...this is why I like A better than B, but that is just ME" and contrast it honestly with another gun. I think I am being a more valuable instructor or information souce by doing that. Example-I started shooting 1911s about 4 years ago. While they are great and maybe even my favorite, I have to keep in mind that some of the things I like about that gun means ZERO to another shooter. 1911 guys can be pretty convinced (as pointed out above!) and I try to make a concious effort not to be that way. As good as that gun is, it is just not everybody's answer because everybody is different. This pops up again in techniques. I don't use a particular form of reload. I was assured I was a combat-ineffective caveman for my refusal to use a technique or teach it without alternative. I had to show the instructor why what worked for me with his type of gun would get me into a problem quickly with my type of gun...and being left-handed throws a whole 'nother monkeywrench into things. Not right, not wrong, just different people and different tools.

 

[swingset]

My care-o-meter is not registering the opinions of Glock owners about the M&P. Here, see for yourself.

 

[raz-0]

My care-o-meter is not registering the opinions of Glock owners about the M&P. Here, see for yourself.

a big +1.



There are definite established differences between a lot of guns. For the most part, these differences create a subjective benefit or deficit.



Me? i like the M&P a whole bunch. As for GT, I have no desire to go poop in their sandbox.

 

[gunwolf72]

i have a glock 22 a xd 45 acp and as soon as i can find 1 a 357 M&P and last i looked the xd and M&P are in the 1911 class in idpa

 

[Jester]

XD is ESP and M&P is SSP

 

[Dan Burwell]

The M&P45 would allow you to choose which division to shoot in. you could load to the 165 power factor and shoot CDP, or you could make some super weak 125 PF loads and shoot in either SSP or ESP.



the M&P 9 or 40 is either SSP or ESP.