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Discussion Starter #1
Anyone try this yet? I don't plan to run tons of this through the weapon, just wanna if she can take the occasional pounding from it.
 

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I happen to have my manual right here and it says that running +p+ ammo is a bad idea.
 

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+p is ok, +p+ should be shot out of a full frame pistol like a 1911. If you want that power in a 9mm size, just get a 357-sig, it is a good 100 fps over +p+ 9mm and is the same size bullet.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
jamesr said:
+p is ok, +p+ should be shot out of a full frame pistol like a 1911. If you want that power in a 9mm size, just get a 357-sig, it is a good 100 fps over +p+ 9mm and is the same size bullet.


since the mp comes in .357 sig it should be safe. only difference may be the recoil spring in the .357 sig m&ps
 

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nikon777 said:
[quote name='jamesr']+p is ok, +p+ should be shot out of a full frame pistol like a 1911. If you want that power in a 9mm size, just get a 357-sig, it is a good 100 fps over +p+ 9mm and is the same size bullet.


since the mp comes in .357 sig it should be safe. only difference may be the recoil spring in the .357 sig m&ps[/quote]



That is not correct. The sig case is stronger (stronger than even the 40 s&w), and is designed to handle the extra pressure. The recoil is not the problem, it would be the case expansion from the over loaded 9mm case. You are shooting way beyond what the 9mm was ever designed to 100 years ago. The sig was designed ground up to be basically a 9mm +p+ with about 100fps more, it isn't even a 357, it is a 9mm bullet. But they feared the 9mm name, so they called it a 357.
 

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I have used the same load in my M&P 9 and my M&P 9c. I use this load for carry and have fired over 200 rounds through both of my M&P's without any problems.
 

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jamesr said:
That is not correct. The sig case is stronger (stronger than even the 40 s&w), and is designed to handle the extra pressure.


The reason pistol manufacturers won't certify their guns to work with "+p+" ammunition is because there is no way to know what "+p+" means. It isn't a standard with an upper limit.



Standard 9x19mm SAAMI MAP is 35,000psi.

For 9x19mm +p the MAP is 38,500psi.



Anything above 38,500psi is therefore not within SAAMI specifications. It's called "+p+" but it could be 39,000psi or 41,000psi or 60,000psi. Smith (and other gun manufacturers) can't control what you might put in your gun that's called "+p+" and therefore they warn against it.



However, it's silly to think that the big manufacturers like ATK, Remington, and Winchester are oblivious about building ammo. Their +p+ loads are loaded within specifications set by their respective companies. Suggesting that one of these huge companies doesn't know how to create a brass case adequate to containing chamber pressure is silly.



Now, will "+p+" ammo from these companies cause wear on your pistol at an accelerated rate? Of course. But the average person will never shoot enough ammo through his gun for it to matter. Would I recommend shooting 20,000 rounds of +p+ through the gun a year? Probably not, unless you're willing to pay for the extra maintenance and, eventually, replacing the gun earlier than you would shooting standard pressure ammunition.



At various times in the past I've carried Federal 9BPLE (115gr +p+), Speer 115gr +p+ Gold Dot, and Winchester RA9TA (127gr +p+) in Glocks, Berettas, and SIGs and never worried about it at all. I wouldn't worry about it in a M&P, either.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
kcevans said:
I have used the same load in my M&P 9 and my M&P 9c. I use this load for carry and have fired over 200 rounds through both of my M&P's without any problems.


Just as I thought. Glad to hear it.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
ToddG said:
[quote name='jamesr']

That is not correct. The sig case is stronger (stronger than even the 40 s&w), and is designed to handle the extra pressure.




However, it's silly to think that the big manufacturers like ATK, Remington, and Winchester are oblivious about building ammo. Their +p+ loads are loaded within specifications set by their respective companies. Suggesting that one of these huge companies doesn't know how to create a brass case adequate to containing chamber pressure is silly.

[/quote]



+1



This was precisely my thinking.
 

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nikon777 said:
Thats what I thought.


From reading things like this:



http://frag.110mb.com/



I just don't see the big deal about +p+ ammo. I think it's highly overrated and overpriced, and not worth the extra wear on a gun if you plan on shooting them for anything other than defense, which mean almost never. I would be interested to hear why anyone hear thinks +p+ is really that much better?



If you wanted to shoot an ammo with more ft/lbs you should have gotten a .45
 

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Omikron said:
From reading things like this:

http://frag.110mb.com/

I just don't see the big deal about +p+ ammo.


I just read that site. It rates many of the +p+ rounds at the top of their tests.



I think it's highly overrated and overpriced, and not worth the extra wear on a gun if you plan on shooting them for anything other than defense, which mean almost never. I would be interested to hear why anyone hear thinks +p+ is really that much better?


It's just "more" for folks who want velocity/energy. From the original Illinois State Police load to success with the Secret Service and many agencies in between, light high-velocity nines have been proven very successful.



If you wanted to shoot an ammo with more ft/lbs you should have gotten a .45


Actually, standard-pressure 9mm loads compare pretty well to .45 Auto in terms of muzzle energy, and the same is true if you compare the +p variants of both. The difference, of course, is that most people find the 9mm +p/+p+ much more controllable in rapid fire than .45 Auto +p.



230gr .45 at 850fps: 369 ft-lbs

230gr .45 +p at 950fps: 461 ft-lbs



115gr 9mm at 1,150fps: 338 ft-lbs

115gr 9mm +p at 1,300fps: 431 ft-lbs

115gr 9mm +p+ at 1,350fps: 465 ft-lbs



124gr 9mm at 1,150fps: 364 ft-lbs

124gr 9mm +p at 1,200fps: 396 ft-lbs

124gr 9mm +p+ at 1,250fps:430 ft-lbs



It's also worth keeping in mind, the .45 velocities are from a 5" barrel while the 9mm velocities are from a shorter 4" barrel
 

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I'm not much of a 9mm kind of guy but it's hard to argue with the Illinois State Police success with the +P+ in 115 grain 9mm. I have two issues though. One is why not just go to .40 with the same recoil but a larger bullet? The other is to train with what you carry. One of the things I like about the .45 is that if you use a 230 grain .45 hollow point for carry and 230 grain .45 for training you will be used to the same amount of recoil and point of aim, point of impact.



On the infrequent occasions I use 9mm I use Black Hills 124 grain +P (not +P+) Gold Dot. 1250 fps 430ft lbs which is the same as you show for 124 grain +P+.
 

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My source is simply some rough average velocities at those bullet weights. Figuring the muzzle energy is simple math.



Note that there are no "+p" .40 loads and there is no .40 S&W +p SAAMI specification.



Typical .40 bullet weights and velocities:



155gr .40 at 1,140fps: 447 ft-lbs

165gr .40 at 1,050fps: 404 ft-lbs

180gr .40 at 980fps: 384 ft-lbs



Also, there is the old "INS load" which is still in use:



155gr .40 at 1,200fps: 496 ft-lbs



And the sadly common "low recoil" 165gr load used by many agencies:



165gr .40 at 980fps: 352 ft-lbs
 

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My .40 carry load is Black Hills 155 grain with a velocity of 1150 fps and 450 ft lbs. For .45 it is Black Hills 230 grain 850 fps muzzle energy 368 ft lbs. Both use Gold Dot bullets.



http://www.black-hills.com/factorynew.htm



I didn't know the low recoil 165 grain was that bad. Yikes.



In any event muzzle energy is an important point but not all there is to how effective a round is. But that gets us into all the theories between the gelatin and morgue guys.
 

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With double tap ammo a 40 will do just about everything in one gun. I have a mag full of each.



for home protection and carry in town

40 S&W 135gr Nosler JHP

Ballistics : 135gr. @ 1375fps / 567 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)



for woods carry

40 S&W 200gr. WFNGC

Ballistics : 200gr. @ 1050fps / 490 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)
 

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Quick Read

Sorry if I duplicate something I don't have time to read right now.



First I have fired Winchester 127 +p+ in my M&P. As a matter of fact it is my carry load. Zero problems and it has low flash, EXCELLENT RESULTS ON THE STREET, allows for higher capacity than 40, and his more controllable to me than 40 or 45.



Winchester Ranger is some of the most tightly controlled ammo produced. Sealed primer, excellent bullet, flash retarded, and very good velocity and is still controllable. You can't go wrong with this stuff for a SD round.
 
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