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Discussion Starter #1
I'm thinking I'm gonna put some money away for AR rifle. I've always wanted one, and i'm comming up on some money here shortly.





Anyhow, I was thinking of S&W M&P15 (one with collapsable stock and carrying handle upper, with lizzy flash hider - You know the military looking one). like this



but then local dealer have Bushmaster M4 type rifle



Bush is slightly cheaper, and shop says they are all same, there for he'd recommend Bushmaster gun.

I'm planning to modify it after have some fun with it for a while(and once after I figure out what i want to do with it - like make target shooter with longer, heavy barrel or make plinker with shorter barrel or whatever). Would one or the other better for mofifying it then others?
 

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M&P15, its a no-brainer...

Let me begin by saying that everyone has an opinion and some may get upset by other peoples opinions. So, lets play nice and not turn this post into a war zone like some others, thanks...



So, IMO you should go with the M&P15, but I would like to ask a few questions. First, why would you want a carrying handle? I know its removable, but you when removed you lose your iron sights. The iron sights are essential for you in case whatever optic you place on the platform go down. Second, what will be using either model for, just plinking, target or competition shooting? I have found my M&P15A to be the best bang for the buck, it is a great weapons platform to use in any situation. I am not sure what your intended use is going to be, but I can assure you, you will get better customer support and quality parts in your M&P. You get what you pay for brother, that's why Bushmaster are usually less expensive.



Again, that is IMHO...
 

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Bushy makes a great product and so does Stag Arms (provider of main parts for the M&P line), it is just a matter of what you like!! There certainly are AR type rifles of much lesser quality out there, even a few higher, but either of these are rock solid platforms proven over time. I would lean M&P for customer service and resale. Also, consider the M&P 15T!!
 

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M&P vs Bushy

I have yet to buy a complete rifle from anyone, eccept for the bushmaster 9mm pistol ar I have. The M&P is excelent quality (my best friend has one), of all the companies like bushmaster, rock river, stag etc, Bushmaster generally uses the best internal parts, the others that I mentioned use cheaper parts. I like stags recievers, that is in fact what I have on my rifles, (upper and lower), they are machined not forged, they are better quality. The only thing I can think of other than that is back several years ago, I do not know if they still do this, but Bushmaster decided to make it so you could not use standard ar mags with their rifles, they moved the mag catch down lower, so you couldn't even modify mags to make them work and charged about 40 bucks a pop for them. I do not think they do that anymore, but if they do, I would definately go with the M&P because you can get better mags for less (magpull followers, teflon coated aluminum) for right around 15 bucks each.



The reason I part out my ar's is because, A: one of my frineds works for White Oak Precision, and I can get all parts, recievers etc at dealer cost. It makes the same rifle you guys are talking about, except witha 14.5" Pacnor barrel, yankee hill machine handguard, hogue grip, all aluminum 4 pos butt stock (4 position stocks get shorter than 6 pos ones do) and a YHM phantom flash supressor permanently attrached to the barrel (including the cost of having it pinned on) for about the same price. Oh I also put a burris tactical red dot for $169 that looks like an acog (I cheaped out on this, but i am glad, it is a sweet red dot) the overall value is about $1800 dollars, and it cost me just a hair over half that. Oh I also do duracoating, so that was at cost to. One of these days, i will post some pictures.
 

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Re: M&P vs Bushy

stormdog said:
I have yet to buy a complete rifle from anyone, eccept for the bushmaster 9mm pistol ar I have. The M&P is excelent quality (my best friend has one), of all the companies like bushmaster, rock river, stag etc, Bushmaster generally uses the best internal parts, the others that I mentioned use cheaper parts. I like stags recievers, that is in fact what I have on my rifles, (upper and lower), they are machined not forged, they are better quality. The only thing I can think of other than that is back several years ago, I do not know if they still do this, but Bushmaster decided to make it so you could not use standard ar mags with their rifles, they moved the mag catch down lower, so you couldn't even modify mags to make them work and charged about 40 bucks a pop for them. I do not think they do that anymore, but if they do, I would definately go with the M&P because you can get better mags for less (magpull followers, teflon coated aluminum) for right around 15 bucks each.



The reason I part out my ar's is because, A: one of my frineds works for White Oak Precision, and I can get all parts, recievers etc at dealer cost. It makes the same rifle you guys are talking about, except witha 14.5" Pacnor barrel, yankee hill machine handguard, hogue grip, all aluminum 4 pos butt stock (4 position stocks get shorter than 6 pos ones do) and a YHM phantom flash supressor permanently attrached to the barrel (including the cost of having it pinned on) for about the same price. Oh I also put a burris tactical red dot for $169 that looks like an acog (I cheaped out on this, but i am glad, it is a sweet red dot) the overall value is about $1800 dollars, and it cost me just a hair over half that. Oh I also do duracoating, so that was at cost to. One of these days, i will post some pictures.


Post some pics, brother a picture is worth a 1000 words you know...
 

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Re: M&P vs Bushy

Nice possitive direction you set here StormDog! Its good to have folks like you here for the newbies, including myself in the AR realm!!!



Thanks for sharing brother.



FF



stormdog said:
I have yet to buy a complete rifle from anyone, eccept for the bushmaster 9mm pistol ar I have. The M&P is excelent quality (my best friend has one), of all the companies like bushmaster, rock river, stag etc, Bushmaster generally uses the best internal parts, the others that I mentioned use cheaper parts. I like stags recievers, that is in fact what I have on my rifles, (upper and lower), they are machined not forged, they are better quality. The only thing I can think of other than that is back several years ago, I do not know if they still do this, but Bushmaster decided to make it so you could not use standard ar mags with their rifles, they moved the mag catch down lower, so you couldn't even modify mags to make them work and charged about 40 bucks a pop for them. I do not think they do that anymore, but if they do, I would definately go with the M&P because you can get better mags for less (magpull followers, teflon coated aluminum) for right around 15 bucks each.



The reason I part out my ar's is because, A: one of my frineds works for White Oak Precision, and I can get all parts, recievers etc at dealer cost. It makes the same rifle you guys are talking about, except witha 14.5" Pacnor barrel, yankee hill machine handguard, hogue grip, all aluminum 4 pos butt stock (4 position stocks get shorter than 6 pos ones do) and a YHM phantom flash supressor permanently attrached to the barrel (including the cost of having it pinned on) for about the same price. Oh I also put a burris tactical red dot for $169 that looks like an acog (I cheaped out on this, but i am glad, it is a sweet red dot) the overall value is about $1800 dollars, and it cost me just a hair over half that. Oh I also do duracoating, so that was at cost to. One of these days, i will post some pictures.
 

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Get a flat top with or without a removable carry handle, the flat top is very versatile while the non removable carry handle always has that for a limiting factor, I had to learn that lesson the hard way!
 

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Re: M&P vs Bushy

stormdog said:
I like stags recievers, that is in fact what I have on my rifles, (upper and lower), they are machined not forged, they are better quality.
Stag starts with a forged receiver, it's a raw forging that only slightly resembles the finished part, and then machines it to spec, just like 98% of the manufacturers do, the only exceptions are like Olympic, some of theirs are investment cast instead of being forged, and Sun Devil, who makes receivers from bar stock, nice but more expensive than most other receivers.



stormdog said:
The only thing I can think of other than that is back several years ago, I do not know if they still do this, but Bushmaster decided to make it so you could not use standard ar mags with their rifles, they moved the mag catch down lower, so you couldn't even modify mags to make them work and charged about 40 bucks a pop for them. I do not think they do that anymore, but if they do, I would definately go with the M&P because you can get better mags for less (magpull followers, teflon coated aluminum) for right around 15 bucks each.
I don't know who told you this, but it's complete bullhockey. In standard calibers, primarily 5.56/223, Bushmaster has always used mil spec mags, some of the non standard calibers don't use mil spec magazines, simply because a mil spec doesn't work with all calibers, an example is calibers like the 308/7.62, that cartridge is too long to fit a standard AR15 lower receiver.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The reason why I want the carrying handle is because I love the classic look of Colt AR15. I understand the benefit of flat top (I guess its called A3 top?), but AR15 without handle just do not look right to me. And I undedrstand that I can still install scope with handle in place, or remove it, if i chose to.

Now this gun will be more of prinker - 100 to 200 yrd shooter. I don't think I'm gonna go anywhere to hunt with it, Nor do any serious competition shooting. Really, something I can take with me when I go shooting with my guns. That are cool to show off (lets face it, any AR's mare cool azz!!).



But any gun i own - intended for it or not, have to be able to be used as defence gun - if SHTF, like Umbrella Co lose control of their zombi's. SO i don't really want to have long barrel - like 20+ inches. I do live in small house. have to perform without any issue with moments notice. Although, chance of me useing it as defence gun is slim (I sleep wtih 2 1911's, and beloved M&P).



All i want is BASIC, reliable AR-15 that i can use as base IF I chose to modifiy it in the future.







I'm also thinking about building my own - thats also an option. Buy complete upper, and buil my own lower. much cheaper that way too. but i'm not sure where do I go to get any info on that. I tried to register for !R15.com, but they do not allow anonymous mail server like yahoo(which is all i have...)
 

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"BASIC, reliable AR-15"



If you are going to put a lot of rounds downrange there are better options



All of the major mfgs CAN produce a good rifle ....but.....



Bushmaster is one of the MFG's that cuts cormers to offer a (slightly) lower price



There are other , better choices, other than S&W.....
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Obiwan said:
There are other , better choices, other than S&W.....


such as.... :?:
 

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mity2 said:
The reason why I want the carrying handle is because I love the classic look of Colt AR15. I understand the benefit of flat top (I guess its called A3 top?), but AR15 without handle just do not look right to me. And I undedrstand that I can still install scope with handle in place, or remove it, if i chose to.
I used to think the same thing, so the very first AR I built was a standard A2, it wasn't too long before I got tired of that and wanted a flat top, so I built another, and then another! The A2 ended up a safe queen, that carry handle just doesn't cut it, so I bought all the tools, and a flat top upper receiver, then moved the barrel and the rest of it over to a flat top receiver, it would have been a LOT cheaper to buy a flat top, then add the screw on carry handle in the first place.



Let me tell you, adding a scope to a carry handle model sucks, since the mount attaches to the carry handle, then the scope is mounted above that, it's too high! The ergonomics are all wrong.



Here's how to build one:

http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/lower/



The only exceptions are you don't need to buy some of the things they show, you don't need a stock wrench unless you buy the telescoping stock, and they give you 3 different size roll pin punches, which is strange since there are only 2 roll pins in the lower!



This is all you need:

These make assembling the lower much easier:



http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...OLL+PIN+PUNCHES



3/32 is #3 Roll pin punch (for bolt release pin)

item #230-100-003

#3 Roll Pin Punch $4.05



1/8 is #4 Roll pin punch (for trigger guard pin)

item #230-100-004

#4 Roll Pin Punch $4.15



Small item shipping $3.95



total delivered $12.15



Prices current as of 8/11/2006



Here's my AR family, the AR in the top left is my original, recently converted to a flat top.

 

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I made the mistake of buying my first AR with a non-removable carry handle. Wish I would have done a little more research!
 

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The S&W is far superior to the BM simply because of the BCG's used (which are LMT).



The 15A represents one of the best values on the market.



Next inline for a good basic AR is the SA Model 2 ($830). There is a problem with their BCG's in that they need staked (which we fix) they are good to go.





C4
 

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C4iGrant said:
The S&W is far superior to the BM simply because of the BCG's used (which are LMT).



The 15A represents one of the best values on the market.



Next inline for a good basic AR is the SA Model 2 ($830). There is a problem with their BCG's in that they need staked (which we fix) they are good to go.





C4


No way I would consider Bushmaster inferior to S&W. Stag is fine but BM is a step up if anything. The parts, finish, materials, (they use 4150 barrel steel like Colt does), are certainly up there with the best. AR's are so standardized, most will outlast and outshoot the average person. Colt, LMT, BM, S&W, Armalite, CMMG, and even DPMS now all make excellent rifles and I would have no issues relying on them for my life.



Try www.AR15.com for a wealth of info. As with any weapon, every rifle/ brand should be looked over and put through some serious shooting drills to make sure it hums. Then you are good to go.
 

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CLB said:
[quote name='C4iGrant']The S&W is far superior to the BM simply because of the BCG's used (which are LMT).



The 15A represents one of the best values on the market.



Next inline for a good basic AR is the SA Model 2 ($830). There is a problem with their BCG's in that they need staked (which we fix) they are good to go.





C4


No way I would consider Bushmaster inferior to S&W. Stag is fine but BM is a step up if anything. The parts, finish, materials, (they use 4150 barrel steel like Colt does), are certainly up there with the best. AR's are so standardized, most will outlast and outshoot the average person. Colt, LMT, BM, S&W, Armalite, CMMG, and even DPMS now all make excellent rifles and I would have no issues relying on them for my life.



Try www.AR15.com for a wealth of info. As with any weapon, every rifle/ brand should be looked over and put through some serious shooting drills to make sure it hums. Then you are good to go.[/quote]



Its great to have an opinion, but make sure you know who what you are you are talking with before you make a statement like this, simply put post the facts. Grant has, several times in fact set the standard in knowledge and technical expertise on AR15 in this forum. I regard Grant as one our forums leading authority on AR15's and their accessories. I trust what he says, so should you...
 

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Morgan Walker said:
[quote name='CLB'][quote name='C4iGrant']The S&W is far superior to the BM simply because of the BCG's used (which are LMT).



The 15A represents one of the best values on the market.



Next inline for a good basic AR is the SA Model 2 ($830). There is a problem with their BCG's in that they need staked (which we fix) they are good to go.





C4


No way I would consider Bushmaster inferior to S&W. Stag is fine but BM is a step up if anything. The parts, finish, materials, (they use 4150 barrel steel like Colt does), are certainly up there with the best. AR's are so standardized, most will outlast and outshoot the average person. Colt, LMT, BM, S&W, Armalite, CMMG, and even DPMS now all make excellent rifles and I would have no issues relying on them for my life.



Try www.AR15.com for a wealth of info. As with any weapon, every rifle/ brand should be looked over and put through some serious shooting drills to make sure it hums. Then you are good to go.[/quote]



Its great to have an opinion, but make sure you know who what you are you are talking with before you make a statement like this, simply put post the facts. Grant has, several times in fact set the standard in knowledge and technical expertise on AR15 in this forum. I regard Grant as one our forums leading authority on AR15's and their accessories. I trust what he says, so should you...[/quote]



I am sure Grant is far more qualified to discuss the quality levels of AR's more than I am. Nothign personal against him. I do not consider the BCG in the AR a deciding factor in what is "far superior". I have heard of problems with Lewis Machine and Tools BCG having staking issues. Does it make them inferior--no.



I did not see any statements from Grant, in this thread, other than the BCG that qualified the S&W as a "much better" AR. Making a statment that broad about AR rifles is asking for responses such as mine.



You want some more qualified answers--go to AR15.com and post the same question as it is an AR forum that tends to amass knowledgable people and industry professionals. When I was new to AR's, I did just that. Same as when I considered my M&P, I came here to lurk.





I have nothing against M&P rifles. I and a lot of other's think they are overpriced--like Colt's. At least Colt has a better reason to be so.
 

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Back on the subject of opinons and AR's.



I am very glad I went with flat top uppers.



First rifle I bought I started to add gadgets. (It's called BRD--Battle Rifle Disease and I can't stop). Now I have an EOTECH, ARMS Back-up flip up iron sites and I can mount a scope so that I can get proper cheek weld. Try shooting through an optic mounted on a carry handle




Yes--it is a Bushmaster with around 5,000 rounds of mixed ammo--from surplus to match--without a hiccup. Barrels are awesome--very accurate.



I also have a new Armalite A2 that I had them change out to an A3. It still has the removable handle on it but I now have options! 8)



My 3rd is a CMMG 18" MEDCON upper 1/8 twist that is also very accurate (scoped flat top) and reliable. The lower is my build on DPMS parts.



All 3 are dead reliable and good to go.
 

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