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STi said:
SIG is overrated and over priced IMO...I SEE negative SIG threads on glocktalk all the time!!!


You know, I really like Sig, especially the P226 series. I've shot it, and love the way it points and shoots. And, I really wanted one for a long time. Then I discovered the price tag that goes with it. After getting an FNP-9, and even a Ruger P345, I found them to be just as good and not nearly as expensive. Both those stainless guns combined equals the price of just one Sig P226 stainless with rail. I've never been to that forum before, but I must say, to read them slamming another gun is not cool. Perhaps they feel threatened that M&P is actually a good gun? Perhaps equal, if not, dare I say, better than a Sig?
 

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I didnt read it as a bash either. It was a statement. He was stating what the military tests go to, and that they've seen that theirs can make it that far.



He did not specifically call out S&W or the M&P. And he's right, there's a lot of guns out there that cannot finish the military trials (hell, the Sig 226 and the Beretta 92 were the only ones that met the military's requirements before). I think Sig's got a great product in their classic P series line, and they know it.



I also think their pistols new are expensive, but i'd personally buy a new Sig over a new H&K.



As far as that board bashing other gun makers, it's probably one of the most unbiased boards you'll find. Granted, many of the people there are Sig fans, but almost every one of them owns and likes other makes as well. I've been on the board since June, and cannot tell you the number of times someone has posted asking "What gun should I buy?" only to be answered with "Whichever one fits you best." (There are obviously discussions, pros and cons weighed, and personal experiences shared, but there is very little gun bashing from the regular membership.)
 

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I don't think Paul was being unclassy (probably not a word). Paul was simply stating the truth about what the gun will face. He is obviously confident in their product more than Smith's. Who can blame him? It is the Sigforum after all. I'm also confident in Sig's as I"m carrying my 229R with a Langdon Trigger Job on duty right now. However I will probably switch eventually to a M&P. Now that it seems the .45 may come out soon, I'll probably wait until it hit's the market. Most new guns will have some problems or kinks when they first come out, and the M&P has had some like any other completely new model.



My uncle is a State Trooper for the IA State Patrol. He is a Smith fan and liked their issued 4046's, and had no problem switching to a new Smith. I was at my cousin's place a few weeks ago and my uncle was there. My uncle told me they had many problems with the M&P's and most of them out of his group of 25 had to be sent back to Smith. My uncle stated the gun's had feeding problems with their practice ammo, so most of the guns were sent back. So switching over to the M&P for my uncle and some other's in his class were delayed. It didn't appear to be a problem with the lott of ammo either, however I believe they were using CCI. I recall if my memory serves me correctly the cheaper ball ammo made by CCI doesn't always provide the best luck.



I'm not bashing the M&P, as my boss carries one on duty. I have tried to make it jam and couldn't. I limp wristed, shot weak handed and had no problems. My only complaint was the trigger made the pad of my finger sore after only a hundred rounds, and one of the mags broke after being dropped once on the range floor. Alot of mags would break after being dropped on the floor, even though my Sig one's haven't. His gun also developed rust very quickly on the take down lever. The trigger making my finger pad sore wasn't a big deal, just something different. I shot a 98% on the qualification my first attempt. I shot a 98% with my Sig also. I will most likely switch to an M&P because it seems to be slightly lighter, and I like the consistent combat trigger on the M&P. I would say though, Sig is the company to beat when it comes to pistol trials and long term endurance. The IA State Patrol did not test any other firearms besides the M&P. I also personally didn't think it sounded like they put them through much of a testing process. From my understanding the firearms instructors got together and shot a few thousand rounds through them. His brother is one of the firearms instructors for the IA State Patrol. Personally if I were to adopt a brand new firearm for hundred's of troopers to carry that was relatively untestested I would certainly put the firearm through more of a testing process than that. I am not aware if Cincinnati PD and Columbus tested other firearms either. I don't believe Cincinatti did. I believe the M&P has yet to really be put through it's paces in a large number of pistols at once and with many thousands of rounds. If someone knows otherwise I would be glad to be corrected. I know there are individuals here that have put many thousands of rounds through their guns successfully,but that's not on a large scale basis. I'm not saying the M&P isn't worthy of adoption by other agencies, I just think it's to new yet to say, and I believe it's still relatively untested.



Anyway, I would love for Smith to take back the market it use to dominate. I actually like the idea of Smith, Sig, and Glock sharing the LE Market. I believe the competition makes better firearms for all of us.



For myself I think I'll actually buy a compact model first, now that I think about it. I wouldn't mind something light and concealable for off-duty carry. This will give me a chance to thoroughly test the gun for myself. I"m sure it will be awhile before they make the Safariland 070 for the M&P .45. This will give me ample opportunity to put the compact .40 through it's paces. Can't wait to get my hands on a M&P again.
 

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I didn't take it as bashing either. He was stating that his guns can go through all of the testing, some can't....



If he posted this on a FNP 45 or Taurus OSS thread would you see it as bashing their guns?
 

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I didn't see it as bashing either. But, SIG is having major quality control issues. I doubt highly that they would pass the military trials with their current American made guns unless they were hand assembled "ringers"
 

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Discussion Starter #10
quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

This could very well be the next US military handgun. Yea, I said it.

It's all about cost and performance and the M&P in .40 and 9mm are (IMHO) rock solid! If the .45 is as good , well..........!

Even the frame rails can be replaced.

Try that with a Sig 220 Combat.

Sorry Erhardt, Sig better start working on a polymer .45!





The military has the guns run to 20K rounds. any gun will have to hold up to that mark and beyond - and maintain accuracy. Not everybody can. We know how our guns perform at 20K and 30K. - ERHARDT



Here's the entire post. Just seems like a cheap shot to me, couple of guys on Sigforum thought so too. Oh well, everybody's entitled to their opinion............move along........nothing to see.
 

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Looks like he would let you believe that S&W designed the gun, fired a couple of mags and put it on the market. My guess is that they have put these things through a pretty good torture test and fired a truck-load of ammo through them. Ernhardt is right about Sig's being a known item, but so are Glocks. The real test of either the Sig or the M&P is to give them to 200 soldiers and see when, or if the complaints start. They can do a much better job at finding any hidden flaws than a few fired on thedi range with a platoon of armorers standing by. Heck, my reserve units could find hidden flaws couldn't be found in field trials, I'm sure active duty types are much more adept at that.
 

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I didn't take it as bashing either, just pointing out the strengths of his company's guns. It would be the same as if someone asked an executive at Gm about Ford trucks, or vice-versa, and instead of bashing the competition, the smart thing to do would be to talk up the strengths of their own products. As some posters here have pointed out, the M&P is still a very new design and has yet to stand the test of time on a large scale. I personally see no reason that it shouldn't prove to be a top contender in the law enforcement market and in its durability. It does however have to overcome the uphill battle of low expectations that many have developed for Smith semi-autos, mainly due to the early models of the Sigma series.
 

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I didnt see it as a bashing either. I like Sigs a lot, not so much the price tag, but they are solid. The 226 platform is very solid and I think one of the best designs ever brought out. The 226's can and do go through hell and back reliability. Ive seen some horrific test done on them, much worse than a Glock, and to my suprise, they passed w/ flying colors and never failed, not once.



I really like my MP's though.



BTW, for the money, I think CZ's are at or near the top for value vs price. The P01 is an awesome duty/carry gun. Smooth out the trigger and it is a dream.
 

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I didn't take it as bashing either. Erhardt is a class guy. Wanna see bashing? Wait until glock talkers realize how good the M&P is.
 

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I was the one Erhardt was responding to and I didn't even take it as bashing.

Erhardt was doing his job and promoting his products. That was all.



One additional comment!



I view Paul Erhardt as a Class Act. You don't see many folks in his position who are willing to take the time to answer questions, respond to complaints or positive comments and provide timely information on new products the way he does.

On Sigforum, you can state your opinion and disagree with what is said all you want but the Moderators don't stand for BASHING anyones products. Para and the Members will not put up with it
 

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Jupiter said:
On Sigforum, you can state your opinion and disagree with what is said all you want but the Moderators don't stand for BASHING anyones products. Para and the Members will not put up with it


Bashing doesn't fly too high here either!!



Personally, I don't like it, and I won't stand for it, no matter what Brand or Model.



Y
 

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ysued said:
[quote name='Jupiter']

On Sigforum, you can state your opinion and disagree with what is said all you want but the Moderators don't stand for BASHING anyones products. Para and the Members will not put up with it


Bashing doesn't fly too high here either!!



Personally, I don't like it, and I won't stand for it, no matter what Brand or Model.



Y[/quote]



+ 1 ysued!



I hope to see this forum Flourish and Prosper and long live the M&P!
 

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Thanks!!



I want the same thing too!!



I guess that was one of the reasons I was invited to become a Moderator.



I want to hear everybody's ideas and opinions, in a friendly, civilized manner.



Let's keep this forum fun and friendly.



Y
 

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As someone who has many glocks, smith & wessons, and sigs, I shoot better with my sig, but ENJOY my m&p's more and shoot very well with it.



if the m&p holds up to 20,000 rounds the military will make a wise switch.



but I think both are nice....just like my s&w's more.
 
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