[Blackwatch]

I seemed to stir up some contraversy on a LE forum in Canada when I asked about the "slide release" on my M&P being very sticky. 500 rounds through it and it is still stcky.

All of the PO's scolded me for referring to the slide stop as a release and told me it was extremely dangerous in a firefight to advance the slide after reload with the slide stop. Fine motor skills go in the heat of combat so they all use the slingshot method. Aside from my father, the only training I have had has been with the Canadian Army. They taught the slide release method. And all other military I have asked have said the same.

My question is if your fine motor skills cannot operate the slide release then how did you operate the mag release?

Just curious what most US police officers use. I will try to attach a poll, but I am new at this

Thanks

 

[TOF]

When my fine motor skills go I revert to course motor skills. Sometimes they work better. You will do what you are used to doing when under pressure. If that is the release then that is what you will reach for. I usualy leave my slingshot at home when going to a gun fight myself.



I used a little wet and dry (600 grit) paper on the release and slide notch. It works wonders and won't prevent using the other method. My MPAxxxx 40 has a much flatter slide release than my MPBxxxx9 and is harder to release by thumb. I intend to see if the later version is available as an individual part.



Enjoy. :twisted:

 

[choochboost]

The skills needed to use the slide RELEASE are the same skills needed to use the mag release in the first place so I'm not worried about it. Especially when I use both automatically without thinking about it.

 

[45guy]

I believe the probably of chambering a round goes up when using the slingshot method. After all, you are pulling the slide back futher.

Also when clearing jambs, everyone I have ever seen, uses the slingshot. It is a matter of doing it the same way every time.

I'm no expert, just my 2 cents.

 

[bluethunder]

I usually just slam the clip home. With alocked back slide it automaticlly chambers a round. This is just for informal plinking with my buddies.

 

[TOF]

I believe the probably of chambering a round goes up when using the slingshot method. After all, you are pulling the slide back futher.

Also when clearing jambs, everyone I have ever seen, uses the slingshot. It is a matter of doing it the same way every time.

I'm no expert, just my 2 cents.

If the gun is not working properly an extra 1/8 inch spring compression isn't going to help much.



To me clearing jambs is clearing jambs and inserting a fresh mag in a properly operating gun is a different subject.



If your gun is not reliable you better stay out of gunfights. IMHO :twisted:

 

[nickdrak]

I voted "Sling-shot" as that was the only choice offered other than the slide stop lever. To clarify, the "sling-shot" technique is performed when you "pinch" around the rear of the slide with your thumb and index finger of your weak/support hand. Not very positive, especially when you add some sweat/blood/oil and stress to the mix. It is also nearly impossible to perform this without extending the pistol, and your hands far out in front of you. Not good when things get close & personal.



The technique that I use, and commonly used by many LE agencies during training, along with many "tactical" firearms training schools is the Over the top grasp. You simply grasp your pistols slide with your entire hand over the top of the slide. Your thumb should grasp on the weak side and the rest of your digits should grasp on the strong side of the slide without blocking the ejection port. Your index finger may also wedge up against your rear sight while grasping the slide. Then using an aggressive movement, rip the slide to the rear. DO NOT RIDE IT FORWARD. I use this same movement for malfunction clearances as well, and slightly cant the pistol to the ejection port side to help clear any casings or other foreign objects out. I use this method mainly because it is the same movement for both pistol manipulations (Reloading & Malfunction clearance), and if there is stress factored in, the commonality of the movement for both manipulations may very well save my life in a gunfight. Basically a K.I.S.S. approach to weapons manipulations.



I dont really buy the "Diminished fine motor skills" theory when it come to these manipulations either, and if you are able to drop your slide 100% of the time using the slide stop lever, even under stress, then you are good to go. Dont change.

 

[nickdrak]

Ooops! I was hoping to stir up more conversation, not kill it completely

 

[Bloodnut]

Well Nick, you shut it down because your dissertation is correct.

 

[Blackwatch]

I voted "Sling-shot" as that was the only choice offered other than the slide stop lever. To clarify, the "sling-shot" technique is performed when you "pinch" around the rear of the slide with your thumb and index finger of your weak/support hand. Not very positive, especially when you add some sweat/blood/oil and stress to the mix. It is also nearly impossible to perform this without extending the pistol, and your hands far out in front of you. Not good when things get close & personal.



The technique that I use, and commonly used by many LE agencies during training, along with many "tactical" firearms training schools is the Over the top grasp. You simply grasp your pistols slide with your entire hand over the top of the slide. Your thumb should grasp on the weak side and the rest of your digits should grasp on the strong side of the slide without blocking the ejection port. Your index finger may also wedge up against your rear sight while grasping the slide. Then using an aggressive movement, rip the slide to the rear. DO NOT RIDE IT FORWARD. I use this same movement for malfunction clearances as well, and slightly cant the pistol to the ejection port side to help clear any casings or other foreign objects out. I use this method mainly because it is the same movement for both pistol manipulations (Reloading & Malfunction clearance), and if there is stress factored in, the commonality of the movement for both manipulations may very well save my life in a gunfight. Basically a K.I.S.S. approach to weapons manipulations.



I dont really buy the "Diminished fine motor skills" theory when it come to these manipulations either, and if you are able to drop your slide 100% of the time using the slide stop lever, even under stress, then you are good to go. Dont change.

Thanks, I thought the slingshot was the over hand grasp

 

[wr moore]

One of the few advantages to being an old fart is watching the same old stuff come around again with new justifications. The trigger stroke is also a fine motor skill.



I train with the slide stop. If you exclusively use the "sling shot" method, exactly what are ya gonna do if only one hand is still operational??????



If you've got a magzine or so through the weapon, the overhand method will show you why you should wear gloves. Similar to the thought that you should stick the pistol in your waistband to reload if one handed. We once issued .357's, you'll only try that once :!:

 

[JBP55]

I voted slingshot and totally agree with nickdrak.

Train to Draw, Fire, Reload, Fire and Reholster first with strong hand only then off hand only and you will be better prepared when you only have one hand operational. It is more difficult when you have to draw from a triple retention holster with your off-hand.

 

[str8shtr]

I have used both methods and I prefer to use the slide stop to release the slide. I think to many people are getting wrapped around the axle about the fine motor skills/gross motor skills stuff. You will perform the task the way you have been trained or trained yourself. Under pressure I have always reverted back to the slide stop to release.



We use a level 3 holster and I practice and teach one handed reloading and drawing the weapon to our cadets. I think it is very important to practice this.

 

[jnc36rcpd]

I prefer the slidestop method, but I do understand the thinking behind the slingshot and over-the-top methods. We do encourage officers with small hands to use their support hand thumb to hit the slide release if this is faster. It is, of course, important to train to release the slide stop even if you opt for the slingshot/over-the-top methods. It will be easier to hit a slide stop than to find something to hook your sights on if you only have your dominant hand available to get the weapon back in action.



That said, I suspect the slide release issue will rank with hinged vs. chain handcuffs and calibre debates as an eternal struggle of law enforcement

 

[stg58fal]

Slide Release

I have been involved in serval dicussion on this issue and I have yet to hear one valid reason not to use the weapon the way it was designed.



I have had people tell me that the slide stop will heat up and not work. How much ammo are they carring? I have also heard people state it helps the weapon function more efficent. How? All springs are designed to work from the slide stop.



Please listen to this statement with an open mind. Most people reduce the slide speed using the sling shot method. The reason is they do not release the slide cleanly at its maxium point to the rear. A slide stop will produce faster slide speed. It releases the slide cleanly from the area the weapons designer designed it to be release from.



So far as fine motor skill and blood etc. I dare to say it requires more fine motor skill and would be harder to utilize the sling shot method covered in blood than just pushing the slide release down a fraction of an inch.



I can say this for a fact a slide release is quicker and more improtantly keeps your hands close to the grip used to fire the weapon. This two things lead to more speed and more imprortanly more accuracy.



Just my 2 cent

 

[nickdrak]

Re: Slide Release

I have been involved in serval dicussion on this issue and I have yet to hear one valid reason not to use the weapon the way it was designed.



Not trying to be a smart ass here, but it IS called the slide STOP lever, not a slide release lever so it is arguable exactly how a particular pistol was designed to be operated/manipulated



I have had people tell me that the slide stop will heat up and not work. How much ammo are they carring? I have also heard people state it helps the weapon function more efficent. How? All springs are designed to work from the slide stop.



Not quite sure what you are trying to say in the above statement?



Please listen to this statement with an open mind. Most people reduce the slide speed using the sling shot method. The reason is they do not release the slide cleanly at its maxium point to the rear. A slide stop will produce faster slide speed. It releases the slide cleanly from the area the weapons designer designed it to be release from.



There is a difference between the "Sling-Shot" and the Over-the-top grasp techniques. The Sling-shot means you pinch the very rear of the slide between your index & your thumb and pull back to release the slide (Not very positive). With the Over-the-top grasp, you grab the entire rear portion of the slide by grabbing it over the top of the slide toward the rear/against the rear sight (VERY positive gross movement). Properly done by ripping the slide to the rear and not "riding" the slide forward, the Over-the-top technique would seem to generate more slide speed then using the slide STOP lever. On my M&P's, I pull the slide about 1/4" futher back from were the slide stop lever engages the slide when using the Over-the-top technique.



So far as fine motor skill and blood etc. I dare to say it requires more fine motor skill and would be harder to utilize the sling shot method covered in blood than just pushing the slide release down a fraction of an inch.



On some pistols with low profile slide stop levers such as Glocks & the early model M&P's it may be nearly impossible to drop the slide by using the slide stop lever if it is covered in blood or oil.



I can say this for a fact a slide release is quicker and more improtantly keeps your hands close to the grip used to fire the weapon. This two things lead to more speed and more imprortanly more accuracy.



Just my 2 cent

 

[ToddG]

Arguing about whether the slide release/slide stop/gizmo is meant to drop the slide is silly. Look at it. Look at its shape. Look where the surface is serrated. It's clearly meant to be pushed down.



The claim that the extra tiny bit of slide spring tension will help the gun chamber a round would hold more water if not for the fact that countless thousands of people have used the lever gazillions of times without a problem. It's like suggesting you should throw your body at your car door when you shut it, because the extra force will make sure it's closed. Adding more force doesn't automatically mean more reliability.



The "gross vs. fine motor" thing has also been completely messed up by folks who are better at remembering fun buzz words than understanding their meaning. A gross motor skill is one that uses the major muscles of the body, like running and jumping. A fine motor skill is one that uses smaller muscles and in particular grabbing something is used as the epitome of a fine motor skill. On the spectrum from gross to fine, a one-directional swipe of a lever requires less fine control than using fingers and thumb to grasp the slide a particular way at a particular point, pull it back, and then release it at the precise right time without riding it forward.



Mas Ayoob performed an experiment a few years back where, under the supervision of a medical professional, students were injected with adrenaline and then tested to see which was easier for them to do under adrenalized load, use the lever or the overhand rack. The result: students were more likely to release the slide properly and quickly with the slide release lever than trying to grasp the slide and manipulate it properly with a manual rack.



The fact is that under stress, you'll do what you've trained to do if you've trained adequately. And if you haven't trained adequately, you're screwed regardless. Given that I'll train enough to do it properly subconsciously under stress, I'd much prefer to use the technique that's demonstrably faster. Remember, we're talking about reloading an empty (slide locked back) gun. This means (a) we've fired a lot of rounds already and (b) we feel the need to fire more rounds right away and © our gun is out of the fight until we get it loaded. Under that set of circumstances, "fast" seems like a good thing to me.

 

[nickdrak]

Todd,



I completely agree with everything stated in your above post. I have merely been explaining why I use the over the top technique instead of the slide stop lever, and as you have pointed out above, it is due to my training. It has nothing to do with the optimal release point to generate slide speed, or whatever else I was responding to which is indeed irrelavent. The "Over-the-top" technique is what I have been trained to do since starting my LE career, and that is what I have continued to employ into my training ever since, and will continue to do so. To each his own, and it all comes down to YOUR training and what YOU are comfortable with in the end.



Stay safe!

 

[ToddG]

nickdrak -- Can't argue with success! If it works for you, then obviously it's what works for you and there is no reason to change.



I was an avowed "rack" guy for years until I sliced my left thumb one night and needed to keep it bandaged for about a week. Well, the Band-Aid would rip off every time I racked the slide so out of necessity I started using the slide stop lock release whatever lever. Much to my surprise, a few weeks later at an IDPA or IPSC match I realized I was hitting the lever when doing reloads instead of racking the slide by hand. In that short a time I transitioned to the faster technique without even meaning to.

 

[Tarheel_725]

The slide release on the mp is so well located that it is much quicker for me to use it. I can slam a mag in and hit the release extremely fast, much quicker than i could get my left hand up there to slingshot it.