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Discussion Starter #1
I started shooting about a year ago. I don't get to actually go out as much as I want. Currently I'm not doing any dry fire (I'm saving my pennies for a Dry Fire Mag with Mantis, because I can't see dry firing unless I can see and measure results.) I've had my M&P 9mm 2.0 4.25" about 6 months and I like it.

I began having problems hitting the bullseye. I could group fairly well -- most within a 4×6 card at 10 yards. Then I started going everywhere but, mostly a banana left and down. I pulled in to 4-5 yards and it's the same.

As near as I can tell, aside from some flinch, I seem to be milking the grip. That is, I'm moving the entire hand as I squeeze the trigger. And my support (left) hand also tightens, so where the final aim point is at ignition is anyone's guess!!

I tried a few things to narrow this down. If I shoot strong (right) hand only, with just my middle finger and thumb on the grip, I can get a pretty good group. I actually shot tea cup style and got a better group than two-hands tacticool.

Any advice on overcoming this??
 

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The Mantis will help identify grip/trigger squeeze/hand movement issues when dry firing. I got one a couple years ago I think it works. I won't tell you when the sights aren't properly aligned with each other or the target, but it will tell you if you're moving the pistol when you squeeze the trigger.

Why do you need a dry fire magazine? Can't you clamp the Mantis on the frame rail and slightly rack the slide between trigger squeezes?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Why do you need a dry fire magazine? Can't you clamp the Mantis on the frame rail and slightly rack the slide between trigger squeezes?
If my grip and hand movement is the problem, I don't want to release my grip to rack the slide each time. Kinda defeats the purpose of adjusting grip, testing, readjust, test some more, etc etc.
 

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You might want to try a different palmswell on the grip that will position your hand differently and may help
 

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I started shooting about a year ago. I don't get to actually go out as much as I want. Currently I'm not doing any dry fire (I'm saving my pennies for a Dry Fire Mag with Mantis, because I can't see dry firing unless I can see and measure results.) I've had my M&P 9mm 2.0 4.25" about 6 months and I like it.(SNIP)
As near as I can tell, aside from some flinch, I seem to be milking the grip. That is, I'm moving the entire hand as I squeeze the trigger. And my support (left) hand also tightens, so where the final aim point is at ignition is anyone's guess!!
I tried a few things to narrow this down. If I shoot strong (right) hand only, with just my middle finger and thumb on the grip, I can get a pretty good group. I actually shot tea cup style and got a better group than two-hands tacticool.

Any advice on overcoming this??
First, I would continue dry-firing. It is still valuable without seeing results on paper. Watch the front sight closely as the trigger breaks - it shouldn't move. With a mag out of the gun, cycle the slide manually after releasing the trigger to cock the gun to reset the trigger, but start doing it faster and getting back on-target quicker. Then work to release the trigger as soon as you are back on target. That will force you to speed-up you process, and will eventually expose any issues. Watch the front sight closely. It tells you where the rounds would go.

You can train to shoot 1-handed, but it shouldn't be your first choice or any way to correct a technique problem. 2-hands on the pistol will always be better for accuracy and getting back on-target quicker. Dismiss the "tea-cup" grip in favor of a more secure 2-handed grip. Plenty of videos out there for suggestions, but you need a firm 2-handed grip to control recoil efficiently and get back on-target quickly.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
@Eagle: I have the smallest one on there now. I wish there was a size smaller. The other issue is that I have very little grip strength. I have a 45-yr-old whiplash injury that affects the nerves down my left arm & hand, and some torn ligaments in my right shoulder that have lead to less movement and therefore strength.

Yeah - a smaller gun. But I really don't want to give up magazine capacity. And I was shooting okay when I first got it - but apoarently a bad habit snuck in and got reinforced.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
@jkv45: Yeah, I can see the front sight move a bit. But what I can't see is what's causing the movement -- what the rest of my fingers, and my left hand, are doing to cause it. I've seen a lot of videos, tried a lot of things. Still having issues.
 

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You may not ever figure out on your own what you are doing wrong. You need someone who knows how to teach new shooters to closely and carefully watch while you are shooting. That person will check your grip and stance and be able to see almost imperceptible movements that greatly affect where that bullet is going to hit after you pull the trigger and it leaves the muzzle.

One of my friends was consistently shooting low and left: Except when she was shooting and moving! That made it very interesting to analyze! Her grip and stance looked perfect. Then I stood fairly close, to her left side and concentrated on watching the muzzle of her gun. It turns out that she was dipping the muzzle just as she began pulling the trigger! The movement was so tiny that if I had not been in that exact position and totally concentrating on the muzzle, I would not have noticed it.

We are now working on a modified grip for her that will help her to pull "back and up" very slightly with her support hand to prevent that muzzle dipping which was a wrist movement. Once you develop a bad habit it can take a long time to retrain those muscles. A ton of dry firing can help with that retraining but you have to know exactly what is happening each time you pull that trigger or you can easily revert to doing it wrong.

Without a coach you are often in limbo. Most ranges have trained help available - for a price, but that can be the best money you can spend when you get a good teacher/coach.
 

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@jkv45: Yeah, I can see the front sight move a bit. But what I can't see is what's causing the movement -- what the rest of my fingers, and my left hand, are doing to cause it. I've seen a lot of videos, tried a lot of things. Still having issues.
I would continue dry-firing and trying to isolate the issue.

It may take time, but eventually you will figure out the cause.

Coaching is a great alternative, but may not be possible right now.

One other thing you may consider is purchasing an air pistol. If you like feedback, you can get it with an air pistol. No recoil of course, but it will instantly show you your mistakes. Shoot almost anywhere at any distance. I started shooting Olympic-style 10M air pistol to improve my 3-gun Bullseye shooting when I hit a plateau with my scores. It helped.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Saw a video clip of Lena Miculek yesterday. She talked about her "weird" grip. One item: because she has less grip strength, she rolls her elbows down and in to let her arm bones create a grip. I tried it today - shot through 9 magazines and had much better groups @ 4 yards.
 
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