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We've had this argument a lot with pistols, but what is considered stopping power in an AR?

To keep it simple lets limit this to 5.56/.223. Distances can very, grns and load. If the shtf what do you want?
 

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Just depends on what you want. The 5.56 has done in many a person, I know I wouldn't stand willingly in front of one. That being said, there are more powerful cartridges such as .308 and .30-'06. The bigger loads have downsides though. These would be more weight and less capacity generally. Overall, I think people who really jump on to one side or the other tend to be splitting hairs as each has advantages and disadvantages. If you don't want to get killed for lack of being able to shoot back, the 5.56 may be for you. If you need to harvest some game or turn cover into concealment then the 30 calibers may be better.
 

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Well there has been a lot of discussion about the effectiveness of the 5.56 NATO round, the best example that I can think of is what the Russians did when they saw the M16 used in Viet Nam, they went from 7.62x39 to a 22 cal round with ballistics that are extremely close to the 5.56 NATO, so the Russians certainly believed it was a more effective round.



From what I have seen, some of the more recent negative reports are more a fault of the military going to shorter and shorter barrels, which has caused a substantial loss of the bullets velocity, which has a negative effect on the rounds effectiveness.



Here's an interesting article on the subject:

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15Shoot...emswith556.msnw



Another interesting fact is that Dr Fackler, who is considered the foremost expert on the subject, has written that at ranges of less than 300 yds, the 5.56 NATO is MORE effective man stopper than the 7.62 NATO round.
 

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The BEST defensive loads for the 556 is the Hornady TAP in 75gr and the Black Hills 77gr MK's.







C4
 

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SHTF? 5.56/.223. Hell, ontop of that, get yourself a .22LR upper or a ciener conversion for quiet small game gathering purposes.



If you want the gun for SHTF, I'd really say it depends on your area. If you live in a flat wide open area like the SW or central United States, .308 starts making a lot of sense. But, if you live in the east amongst urban sprawl or just tight woods .223 makes the most sense.



What really does it for me about .223 is in a SHTF scenario, if your bugging out, or even bugging in, there is no logistics chain to support you. You aren't part of a war machine. You get what you carry, and thats about all she wrote for practical purposes. Carrying in either case one of the two most common cartridges in the United States is wise though because you may happen amongst some ammo, but you can't count on that. In the terms of sheer weight you can only carry so much, and pound for pound you get almost twice as much .223 ammo. Also for SHTF a cartridges adaptability is paramount, because you don't have an arsenal to choose from. Most likely you'll have one rifle, or more importantly one caliber, and that caliber has to do everything from bunnies and dogs to people and deer, to whatever unforeseen situation arises.



Stopping power wise, I think more ability to make relatively softer hits trumps less frequent harder hits...to a point. I don't advocate using a pistol caliber carbine but in the scheme of things .223 is anything but. Its a very destructive round out of a 16 inch barrel out to around 300 yards. It still way better then shooting someone with a 9mm at 10 yards out around 500 yards.
 

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Closet Case, I agree mostly (as far as terrain should affect caliber choice). That's why I ended up with .223 and 9mm (pistol and soon to have carbine too). I live in the mountains and I'll never need to hit anything past 100 yards.

I am interested in the lack of enthusiasm about pistol cartridge carbines though. I think the added velocity makes for a decent weapon out to 100 -150(some say) yards. Does anyone actually plan on needing a SD weapon at 300-500 yards? I understand that getting food will probably be more important than SD and that is my weakness. I've never hunted. That's right, I said it. Given the state of the union these days I will at least be gaining the skills to kill, dress, and store small game for a SHTF scenario but in my infinite ignorance it seems like a 9mm out of a 16" barrell would kill most small game.

please dont let me hijack,

http://mp-pistol.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=33481#33481

I started a thread to save this one.
 

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7.62x39mm M68 FMJ
 

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Colt said:
7.62x39mm M68 FMJ
I think one of the best judgments on the effectiveness of the 7.62x39 was when the Soviets saw how the 5.56mm NATO round performed in actual use, they changed over to their own version of our 5.56, I don't believe they would have converted to a 22 if it was less effective than their 7.62x39 round.
 

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Morgan Walker said:
[quote name='C4iGrant']The BEST defensive loads for the 556 is the Hornady TAP in 75gr and the Black Hills 77gr MK's.







C4


How about the 62grn Lake City SS109 M855 round?[/quote]



Any round is a good one if you can hit a major organ. With that said, their are better rounds for defense out there (77gr MK and 75gr TAP).





C4
 

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300 yards and under out of a 20 inch barrel, all the 50gr plus AR rounds will do you great harm where you want it done. The only thing in that range up for depate is penetrating barriers and maintaining lethality on the other side.



Shorter barrels affect the equation considerably. Mainly because .223's effevtiveness come from being very fast and light.



62gr rounds seem to work reasonably well out of a 16 inch barrel. I don't think i would go shorter seeing how much velocity I lose form a 20 inch barrel to a 16 though.
 

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I think one of the things us CIVY shooters need to keep in mind are the ranges that we would most likely engage someone in. Because these distance will be VERY short (most likely well under 20yds) and the shots will be taken from INSIDE a building, you need to look at the fragmentation capability of the round. This is why FMJ (M193/M855) are VERY bad choices as they will go through several walls and most likely end up in your neighbors house. So stick with something that will fragment (the Hornady TAP line is a VERY good choice for this).



Fragmentation range out of a 10.5 is about 30-40yds (depending on ammo). This is MORE than enough distance for a Civy shooter IMHO.







C4
 

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C4iGrant said:
I think one of the things us CIVY shooters need to keep in mind are the ranges that we would most likely engage someone in. Because these distance will be VERY short (most likely well under 20yds) and the shots will be taken from INSIDE a building, you need to look at the fragmentation capability of the round. This is why FMJ (M193/M855) are VERY bad choices as they will go through several walls and most likely end up in your neighbors house. So stick with something that will fragment (the Hornady TAP line is a VERY good choice for this).



Fragmentation range out of a 10.5 is about 30-40yds (depending on ammo). This is MORE than enough distance for a Civy shooter IMHO.







C4


I like this type of thinking, I was always told that OO was the best home defense round and I recently changed to #4 bird shot, for CQC because of penetration factor. After 19 years of using Lake City Ammo it has simply been ingrained into my thinking, I simply need to stop and rethink what my needs are while using my AR, thanks Grant...



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C4iGrant said:
I think one of the things us CIVY shooters need to keep in mind are the ranges that we would most likely engage someone in. Because these distance will be VERY short (most likely well under 20yds) and the shots will be taken from INSIDE a building, you need to look at the fragmentation capability of the round. This is why FMJ (M193/M855) are VERY bad choices as they will go through several walls and most likely end up in your neighbors house. So stick with something that will fragment (the Hornady TAP line is a VERY good choice for this).


Heard the same about the M855 round. There is a vid, google "Cover Does Not Equal Concealment", which shows the effectiveness of the 5.56.



2 - 3 rounds rapid fire, COM will mess up someone's day, just hope it doesn't mess up you neighbors as well.
 

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Cool vids!!! Nice find Kazman!! :wink:



Kazman said:
[quote name='C4iGrant']I think one of the things us CIVY shooters need to keep in mind are the ranges that we would most likely engage someone in. Because these distance will be VERY short (most likely well under 20yds) and the shots will be taken from INSIDE a building, you need to look at the fragmentation capability of the round. This is why FMJ (M193/M855) are VERY bad choices as they will go through several walls and most likely end up in your neighbors house. So stick with something that will fragment (the Hornady TAP line is a VERY good choice for this).


Heard the same about the M855 round. There is a vid, google "Cover Does Not Equal Concealment", which shows the effectiveness of the 5.56.



2 - 3 rounds rapid fire, COM will mess up someone's day, just hope it doesn't mess up you neighbors as well.[/quote]
 

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I prefer to cover the bases. I have .223 and also 7.62x39 plus a .308 for long range.

Shotguns and .45's take care of the rest. Bases covered.

The .223 is finicky unless you go with a gas piston which is why a AK always goes boom.

A gas bolt is the biggest flaw of the AR series. Bases still covered.

Havin a wife thats ex-military and enjoys a good shoot. Priceless.
 

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For actual SHTF use, many prefer 55 gr FMJ (M193) over 62 gr ss109 (M855) at the most common engagement ranges (less than 100 yds). It tend to yaw and fragment well at those speeds from typical barrel lengths.



The M855 does tend to do a little better at longer ranges as far as accuracy (though "better" is very subjective) and possibly slightly better at barrier penetration.



The heavier rounds (77grSMK) will out perform them all in accuracy at distance. It is not really any more effective at barrier penetration though. If using an AR for home defense and neighbors are near, I agree with a more frangible TAP type round.
 

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I have been at a real dilema in deciding in the .308 vs. the .223 and I think I have researched it until my eyes hurt!! I really just havent come to a final conclusion even after considering 4 different guns in the scenario of buggin out SHTF knockdown power!



Now that S&W is offering a $100 off and on top of the EMT discount through C4 it makes it very hard to turn away from a great gun like the M&P AR in exchange for the DPMS .308 at $1200, the Saiga .308 at $350 (but $50+ for unreliable HiCap mags) or a an old Yugo SKS in 7.62x39 for the cheapness of the overall platform. I have weighed just about everything from cost to weight if I ended up having to be on foot for 200miles to my BOL in East Texas from DFW. The terrain changes significantly over that 200 miles from Urban and flatland, to medium growth all the way to full piney wood thicket around 100 miles into the hike. Along that way the potential for conflict is VERY real and the need to reach out and touch someone through a barrier is a very real scenario. However, less rounds and more weight of .308 in substitute for more knockdown energy is a double edged sword?



I would use this gun as a hunting rifle in times of SHTF while at the same time it will be my main defense weapon and only rifle that I have with me up here, along with my Mossy 12ga loaded with 00 and Slugs.



I have an old very reliable 30-30 winchester back home and would probably find it better for hunting deer here in Texas and penetrating the sometimes thick cover.
 

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G56 wrote



Another interesting fact is that Dr Fackler, who is considered the foremost expert on the subject, has written that at ranges of less than 300 yds, the 5.56 NATO is MORE effective man stopper than the 7.62 NATO round.


Huh? Do tell I'm all ears. Hmmm. I'm old school and my brain is thinking less penetration,

and smaller bullet is better?
 

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At short ranges from full-length barrels, the .308 has a tendency to penetrate fully without much upset, while the 5.56mm does not. Ammo selection, weapon selection, etc. can all play a role to even things out. However, the .308 still has other benefits, particularly in terms of barrier penetration and probably even bone penetration.
 
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