[yerasimos]

. . . and a gun designed around that cartridge, the M&P.



In light of modern JHPs like the Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, I do not buy into the bigger is better argument. From what I have read, shot placement and penetration are the primary factors in handgun stops.



I have shot 9mm Luger for years, and one thing I noticed is that regular 9mm ball behaves a lot differently than the typical +P or +P+ carry JHPs such as the ones I mentioned earlier. Much more recoil with the carry ammunition, as well as a different point of impact at a given range, since the +P and +P+ loaded slugs were probably moving 100+ fps faster than the regular pressure slugs.



My interest in the change to .40 S&W is to maintain recoil and ballistic consistency between what I practice with and what I carry, using factory ammunition. (I acknowledge that if I shoot enough, reloading will become a very attractive hobby, as I see a $4 differential between a box of 9mm ball and a box of .40 S&W ball.) .40 S&W sounds like it has brisk recoil, but is not overwhelming, is relatively easy to find, and not ridiculously expensive. Other calibers like .357 SIG, 10mm AUTO, .45 ACP or .45 GAP may have an advantage in a given metric, but .40 S&W seems to me to be a good overall, proven choice, as it does to many other shooters and agencies as evidenced by ammunition and firearm sales.



Here's the crux of my question, and I have adjusted the font so it is not missed: do regular, factory-loaded FMJ .40 S&W rounds of a given weight typically have similar recoil and external ballistics as carry JHP of identical weight? This may sound like a ridiculous question, but I have only shot .40 S&W once before, from a buddy's Kel-Tec, in the 90's, so I have no prior experience to draw from.



In other words, if I buy 180gr .40 S&W WWB at WallyWorld, is it reasonable to expect it to behave similarly to its 180gr .40 S&W Ranger T cousin, as opposed to the Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde difference between 115 gr 9mm WWB and 127gr 9mm +P+ Ranger T?



I hope this will yield some useful commentary and discussion.



Thanks

 

[Jester]

No, I find that the Wally world rounds are bunny fart loads.



I actually am getting about 1100 FPS out of 155gr WWB, with my ranger 165's shooting 1200.



Not alot, but noticable.



NOW: I have no POA change in my 40 at all, and have trained enough that I can fire as accuratly(sp) and fast as I can with my target loads.



I reload, but I get WWB sometimes for the brass, and I reload to 1150 FPS with a 155 GR round, and I find it to be the best of both. It gives me realistic recoil, but soft enough I can shoot 1k rounds in a sitting and not hurt after.



I hope this answers your question.



BTW reloading 40S&W plated 155 GR, I can still come out 2$ cheaper thank WWB 9mm.

 

[YukonGlocker]

Most of the target ammo is loaded lighter than the self-defense loads, regardless of caliber. Most of the Speer Lawman (target) is loaded to the same level as Speer Gold Dot (self-defense).



For example:

Speer Lawman 9mm 115gr. is advertised at 1200fps out of a 4" barrel.

Speer Gold Dot 9mm 115gr. is advertised at 1200fps out of a 4" barrel.

Both of these loads will feel the same.



Speer Lawman .40 165gr. is 1150fps out of a 4" barrel.

Speer Gold Dot .40 165gr. is 1150fps out of a 4" barrel.

Both of these loads will feel the same.



All of the Lawman/Gold Dot loads are not exactly loaded the same. But most of them are very close. The Speer Lawman is a litte more expensive that WWB, but it is excellent quality, full house loads.



There are not any +P or +P+ target loads that I know of. If you want these you will have to load them yourself.



Just changing calibers will not give you target loads and self-defense loads loaded alike. All of the major ammo makers have the ballistics for every load listed on their website. All you have to do is look up a load that is loaded how you want, just like I did above.

 

[MrApathy]

9mm JHP may not expand but 40sw will not shrink.



9mm JHP can clog fairly easy. so can some 40sw XTP and Winchester JHP. but 40sw has some better wide mouth JHP's that dont clog and fail to expand.



no +p or +p+ in 40sw. for 9mm if you handload can easily make speedy ammo that matches velocity of most +p ammo but has standard pressure ie powerpistol loads.



winchester loads dont matchup to defense load line well.

Speer Lawman and Golddot does that best.



handloading is best way to match things up can do it and make more ammo and shoot more or less ammo and equipment to continue to do so.



prices will only continue to go up can load premium ammo cheaper than you can buy it. when compared to the price of the premium stuff can save alot of money about half. alot of people like to compare to the cheap ammo for some reason. :?



lots of 40sw loads availible and if you handload you can then make your way.

Federal Hydrashock 135gr 40sw civilian is loaded to fly 1150fps shoots like 9mm

most the Federal hydrashock civilian stuff is light recoil and pleasant shooting.



some loads have snap some have push some have both.

it can very with loading and bullet weight but is possible to get any bullet weight to have different characteristic. for most commercial ammo lighter bullets that go fast will have more snap heavier and slower will be more push.



9mm and 40sw I prefer 147gr and 180gr loadings. loaded to 950-1050 a few loads that push them faster and dont mind it.



depends on shooters hands,wrist,muscles,mass and wiring.

 

[DesertRat]

. . . and a gun designed around that cartridge, the M&P.



In other words, if I buy 180gr .40 S&W WWB at WallyWorld, is it reasonable to expect it to behave similarly to its 180gr .40 S&W Ranger T cousin, as opposed to the Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde difference between 115 gr 9mm WWB and 127gr 9mm +P+ Ranger T?



I hope this will yield some useful commentary and discussion.



Thanks

Not always, there are some factors that go into calculating a bullets recoil. Infact there is a recoil formula that can be used. This goes for all cartridges; handgun and rifle.

E = 1/2 (Wr / 32) (Wb x MV + 4700 x Wp / 7000 x Wr)squared.

Where E = recoil Energy in ft. lbs., Wr = Weight of rifle in pounds, Wb = Weight of bullet in grains, MV = Muzzle Velocity of bullet in feet-per-second, Wp = Weight of powder in grains.

To make it easier, unless you want a cerebral workout, I just type “recoil calculator” in google to bring up lots of sources. Here’s one where you can compare 2 different loads. http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

To use this formula you do need a scale to weigh the powder and a chronograph.

Here is another resource of some good info on reloading practice ammo that resembles defensive ammo in recoil. http://ltrdavid.net/

Click on IDPA & 3 gun shooting, then to the left for .40 S&W Load Development.

It might be more info than you want or need but I find it interesting plus at the bottom of the page is some examples of loads tried by others.

My advice to anyone that wants to shoot frequently is to get into reloading to save $ and once you get into it you’ll like it. You won’t be confined to what is on the shelf at the store. Just don’t reload ammo that you will use for self defense, that’s another topic altogether.

 

[bcook75]

So basicly, the only variable is the powder. I think someone mentioned above. ++ = more boom.

Most of the cartridges I buy do not mention type or amount of powder.

To summarize watch for the +s. There are crimping techniques, etc. that technically make a difference that you will never notice.

 

[DesertRat]

Once, I took apart a few factory .40 S&W 165 gr. Gold Dots with a bullet puller, weighed the powder, reassembled the cartridge and shot each round for velocity. I matched each round with powder measured and velocity. Then I used an online recoil calculator to measure and compare the recoil.

That way I could build my own SD training ammo. I did not try to match the powder weight because I have no idea what type of powder they contain. Bullets were copper plated 165’s. My goal was to approximate the recoil of the GD’s.

 

[YukonGlocker]

I tried to find out which powder was used in Gold Dots and Rangers. My response was that they use powder that is not available to the public...

 

[Zerwas]

I use Federal American Eagle 165gr FMJ for practice and I shoot Federal Tactial 165gr JHP for defense. I see ZERO difference in recoil between these two loads.

If you should try different FMJ loads I think you'll find a big difference in perceived recoil. For example, if you should try a CCI load vs a Winchester white box load you'll feel a big difference.

It should also be noted that the M&P pistols (to me) has a much less perceived recoil than many other pistols.

The other thing to note is that in a self defense situation, you more than likely wont notice a difference with a 165 power factor load vs a 190 power factor load.

 

[yerasimos]

Gents,



Thanks for the commentary. I did a little bit of homework on my end and found some factory loads whose weights and velocities seem to match pretty well. I still have to determine if .40 S&W will be good for me, ie, if I can tolerate the recoil, as well as finding good and fair-priced sources for the ammunition. I figure that the M&P is one of the best choices out there for this caliber, and I expect its well-supported chamber will make for easier reloading of the spent cases.

 

[tstrenuous10]

I shot mine yesterday. The recoil wasn't any more then my 357 mag I use to shoot. It snapped back a little bit more but it was controlable. I would say to go for it. It's a different caliber so it fires differently but if you want it buy it.

 

[MP4ME]

9mm JHP may not expand but 40sw will not shrink.

Heh, I hate that line. Even if a 9mm doesn't expand, it's still going to give a world of hurt.

9mm JHP can clog fairly easy. so can some 40sw XTP and Winchester JHP. but 40sw has some better wide mouth JHP's that dont clog and fail to expand.

I dunno, I have heard many stories of .40S&W's not expanding. More often than the .45 and 9mm...

no +p or +p+ in 40sw. for 9mm if you handload can easily make speedy ammo that matches velocity of most +p ammo but has standard pressure ie powerpistol loads.

Thank God there are no +p or +p+ in .40sw! The round is already high pressure as it is, and it's wall casing can barely handle the normal loads.

winchester loads dont matchup to defense load line well.

Speer Lawman and Golddot does that best.

Definitely agree!

handloading is best way to match things up can do it and make more ammo and shoot more or less ammo and equipment to continue to do so.

Heh, I'll be killed if I bring gun powder home. So I guess I'm sol in handloading. LOL

 

[Slavex]

as mentioned modern 9mm defense rounds give virtually identical permanent wound channels and temporary wound channels. The difference in point of impact of 9mm target loads and 9mm defense ammo is so minor as to really not be much of an issue. since something like 95% of all shootings happen within 3ft, a few mm off your point of aim isn't going be a big deal. Same at 25yds, you might be off an inch. Since you aren't going to be sniping someone with your handgun, in a defense scenario there isn't anything to worry about. Recoil? again a minor issue, you won't notice it during the heat of a battle, and again, it's not enough to change your dynamics. A simple way to make sure is to practice with your carry ammo, no matter what caliber you choose, every now and then.

 

[ClosetCaseNerd]

I dunno, I have heard many stories of .40S&W's not expanding. More often than the .45 and 9mm...

Probably because its used more often then any other caliber, and the darling of many police departments. Its like saying, "Hand guns are very unreliable in self defense shootings, I hear about them jamming all the time". Sure, because, whats used most in self defense shootings? Velocity is the most vital component of expansion, and the .40 is not handicapped in this manner by any means.



What the .40 does better then the 9mm is penetration of hard objects like certain bone structures, it also has the added advantage of simply being a wider diameter to start with. I think the .40 in the M&P fires a lot like a 9mm glock when comparing recoil, glock frames to me at least, don't absorb recoil particularly well like M&P and XD frames.



I think the .40 is the optimal cartridge considering the spectrum of .32ACP to .44Mag, and a great choice. Also the M&P sure holds a lot of them in a small package!

 

[Slavex]

from tests I've seen 9mm penetrates better for one simple reason, higher velocity. Which is the same reason proper defensive ammo in 9mm expands to the same size, or damn near, the .40.

for me 9mm is the best choice, plus you can carry more rounds (not that that is an issue in Kanada where 10 rounds are our legal mag limits unless you are using duty mags).

 

[ClosetCaseNerd]

Slavex I don't want to get into a caliber war with you in someone else's thread, but there was a rather long winded post on this where I explained my case. It was prior to when you registered, but if you feel inclined sift through this:



http://mp-pistol.com/boards/viewtopic.php?...sc&start=40



I inquired to one of our members who is well versed in physics as to why the .40 and 9mm show equal penetration in ballistic gelatin, and he explained the following:

The difference in inertia between a 9mm and a 40 cal was about 10%.

The difference in surface area between a 9mm and a 40 at full expansion is about 10%

Since the 40 has 10% more resistance and 10% momentum, they will both stop at the same distance

The difference in inertia and momentum is what matters in penetrating hard media such as bone. The 9mm may penetrate a gelatin equally as well as .40, but the .40 is more capable of breaking and thus penetrating a bone structure like the sternum and skull, and will do slightly more damage to tissue (as it is, afterall, wider) then 9mm.



The reason, as explained, that you see equal penetration numbers on ballistic gel is essentially the drag of the larger/heavier round soaking up the energy available, compared to a initially less powerful round with a lower drag coefficient. But, if both rounds were to be subjected to an initial resistance that was either a pass/fail barrier (either you break a bone or you dont) the .40 would perform better then a 9mm, and the effects on the tissue behind the bone is a moot point if you can't penetrate the initial barrier.



Basically 9mm works great on ballistic gelatins, slightly less so on human bodies.

 

[Slavex]

that would be relevant if the 9mm bounced off of bone, which it doesn't. 9mm penetrates bone just fine, and in tests I've participated in the expanded surface area of a 9mm is not 10% less than a .40. When you are looking at energy transfer from impact 9mm and .40 are, again, almost identical. The big difference is how many rounds (in a free country) can you hold in a gun, and the controllability to place quick and accurate shots on target. 9mm wins those 3 criteria hands down. I used to be a big proponent of the .40 round, but now feel it was an answer to a question that never needed to be asked. Shot placement is the single most important thing about getting a kill shot or to slow down a suspect. No bullet save a .50 AE or 500 S&W is going to actually stop someone simply because they are hit, and even those calibers aren't proven one shot stoppers.

Todd Green (Sig LE Head now I think) used to have an excellent website detailing all the ins and outs of calibers and their performance in shootings. 9mm was just as effective as any other defense round. That says a lot.

If a person is happy shooting .40 there is no reason to change, but the same goes for 9mm and .45.

 

[ClosetCaseNerd]

that would be relevant if the 9mm bounced off of bone, which it doesn't. 9mm penetrates bone just fine, and in tests I've participated in the expanded surface area of a 9mm is not 10% less than a .40. When you are looking at energy transfer from impact 9mm and .40 are, again, almost identical.

I'm all ears and willing to learn, can you produce evidence that disproves the mathematics I supplied or the case study shown above? Because mathematics shows that a heavier rounds will indeed penetrate bone better then a lighter though faster round (within reason, before we get into rifle calibers) This coroner seems to supply evidence to back that up, and since I don't have access to cadavers, I took note.



Energy is not the issue, as a light bullet is easy to get up to blistering speeds, and just as easy to slow down. Momentum is the issue, and momentum is a function of weight.



What test were you involved in?





Also, shot placement is key for sure, but if you shoot someone in the head, or the sternum, (both hits about as good as it gets) and the bullet does not penetrate the bone, then your insufficient terminal ballistics are a bigger issue at that moment. If one's bullet doesn't penetrate, it can't ever get to make those "equal permanent wound channels to a .40" on the other side of the sternum or skull.



Also, the .40 M&P carries 16 rounds of .40, almost twice that of most .45's, and only two less then that of most 9mm's. It's a intermediate cartridge in almost every way.

 

[FLM]

I use 180 gr Ranger T in my M&P. It's very accurate and has mild recoil. It also has a good track record with many LEO agencies. I use a lot of WWB 165 gr for practice and it works well also. I like the 180 gr FP from Rainier for reloading. People worry too much about their practice ammo exactly matching their carry ammo.

 

[tstrenuous10]

Math is just numbers. It's theoretical. I'm not saying the numbers are wrong but I don't trust numbers because this says "we expect" or "it should be about" when that could be completly wrong when experimented with. I'm a chemist so I know the numbers are ideal. Thats where this is coming from.



I do believe the 40 is a better defense round then the 9mm and that is the reason I have it. Since we all know of stories around the interenet of people having been shot with 2 or 3 9mm rounds I suppose that is the reason S&W mad the 9mm a 17 round magazine while the 40 is a 15 round. Unless you live in CA where ther is a 10 round magazine limit and I would choose 10 rounds of 40 over 10 rounds of 9mm. I moved from there 3 years ago, I'm allowed to poke fun at the state. Everyone in NV hates it, don't know why though.