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Discussion Starter #1
New to USPSA shooting here. Used my M&P for the first time at a USPSA match this weekend. My pistol has the magazine safety. When I finished my first stage, I soon discovered that the RO wanted to hear the audible dry fire "click" of the empty pistol firing pin after I removed the mag. and ejected the round in the chamber. Woops, gun won't dry fire without a mag inserted.



I learned to keep a empty magazine in my pocket to show unloaded and clear. This way I did not have to hand unload a magazine.



I just wanted to hear from you if you have a mag. safety equipped M&P and how you deal with the unload and show clear command at the end of your stages. Have you encountered any problems?



Thanks!
 

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Rule 8.3.7.1 clearly states that to show clear, self-loading guns must merely "release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer, if any)." (IPSC Handgun Competition Rules 15th Edition, Jan 2004)
 

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Inserting a "real" mag is a major safety concern for me! Try and find a training mag that will work for the unload and s/c comm.
 

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Is removing the mag safety an option for your? There is no USPSA rule against it, I just don't know if you want it in the gun. Personally I just ordered the model with it to begin with. If not, use spare mag. Maybe paint the follower or something for your peace of mind.
 

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alternately you can carry around a piece of wood cut down to be able to fit in the magwell and poke the little flappy doohickey with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'm going to print this rule out and keep it in my pocket and show it to the RO nicely at the next meet if I get stopped about it again.



Thanks for pointing out the rule ToddG.
 

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Jeff -- be forewarned, knowing and having the rule is not automatically going to get you off the hook. I've met more than one RO who felt like he knew better than the rules, or gave the "well we learned in NROI" or whatever.



My approach is to tell them the rule, and if they insist on hearing a click we can all wait around while someone finds an empty mag for me. If the RO wants to hold up the match because he won't follow the rules, that's his problem.
 

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The only problem with thinking that rule 8.3.7.1 means what you want it to (granted it is vague), means you have to watch out for other badness.



Like if you wind up with a round in the chamber going home for violating a bunch of other rules, or possibly being bumped to open for having more than 11 in a gun at the start signal.



Personally, The rules are belt and suspenders. At least two things have to be screwed up before a third thing causes something bad to happen. Without actually dropping hte hammer on a semi-auto with a magazine disconnect, that means there is one less layer of safety at the safe table.



For grins I'm mailing NROI and asking them what it menas with regards to guns with a magazine disconnect, I'm actually curious what they will say.



I know locally we can and do make sure the gun goes click rather than bang. It's not just about the rules for USPSA, but the rules for the host range and their insurance.
 

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raz -- I understand there is a reason some people want the click, and it won't surprise me at all if NROI interprets the rule as requiring the click. But if you read the rule, in black and white, it very clearly says pull the trigger, not "drop the hammer" or "release the striker" or anything like that. The rule isn't vague in any way. It's like the Second Amendment: clearly written, but open to interpretation by people who want it to mean something else. 8)



A gun which has been visually verified as empty by both the RO and the shooter should be empty! The requirement to pull the trigger is, as you said, an additional check. But if I pull the trigger and the gun doesn't go off, my gun is safe in the holster.



If USPSA says they want me to go "click" so I'm certain my gun will be ok for the drive home, honestly that isn't their concern. And I load my gun in the parking lot before I go home, anyway. There are still a few USPSA members who actually carry concealed.




Both when I worked at Beretta and when I worked at SIG, we had odd rulings come out of NROI. They have create understanding of the intricacies of 1911-style pistols, but go outside that realm and most of their decision making is an attempt to shoehorn other guns into the 1911 mold.
 

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Very interesting... I must say, if a mag disconnect is there and the chamber has been seen to be empty, 2x, the slide is then closed and the triger pulled and nothing happens, then that's it... SAFE, nothing happened. That's my understanding.



I am very new to the Prac pistol comps and not sure as to how the RO will treat the M&P as no one here has one? I believe only 4 have been sold so far in my state? More are on there way but we have to pay just under AU$1000 for them and quite a wait...



I get mine in a couple of weeks time and I will let you know how our RO treats them? :?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Raz O,



I e-mailed NROI today. Good idea. I will quote their response when they get back to me.



Anybody else reading this forum encounter any issues while showing pistol clear to your RO with your mag disconnect equipped M&P?



Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
NROI Response on this topic:





Hi Jeff,



Welcome aboard, glad you are enjoying our sport.



8.3.7.1 indicates that you must pull the trigger without touching the hammer if any, this is so the RO can actually hear the click, magazine disconnects are not new to the NROI, we have had them for years, some have decockers others do not, those that must have an empty mag inserted to release the hammer is a normal means to drop the hammer by pulling the trigger.



Hope this helps.



Safe shooting.



John Amidon

VP USPSA

Director NROI
 

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Not surprised. "The rule doesn't say it, but it means ..."



So now I'm supposed to take a magazine and insert it into my gun after I've shown clear, even though there is absolutely no provision in the rules for doing so, instructions on how to do so, nor any requirement to again remove the magazine! The rule is safer and makes more sense the way it's written than the way NROI chooses to interpret it.
 

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ToddG said:
Not surprised. "The rule doesn't say it, but it means ..."



So now I'm supposed to take a magazine and insert it into my gun after I've shown clear, even though there is absolutely no provision in the rules for doing so, instructions on how to do so, nor any requirement to again remove the magazine! The rule is safer and makes more sense the way it's written than the way NROI chooses to interpret it.


Doesn't seem right to me. Putting a mag back into an empty gun introduces a whole new safety concern... Now a gun that couldn't fire can. They seem to be taking a safe gun and putting it a peg down into the unsafe realm? BTSOOM? :?: :?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I e-mailed the VP a response indicating the points given in this forum....





Mr. Amidon,



8.3.7.1 Self loaders- release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer if any.)



Just a little confused. Thank you for your response and time with this sir. The rule says nothing about hearing the audible "click" but I do pull the trigger for the RO as indicated per the rule, and even before this, I pull the slide back to eject the last round and show to the RO the empty mag well and empty chamber (rule 8.3.6). The rule (8.3.7.1) also says nothing about reinserting a empty magazine into the gun.



The way the rules are written the visual inspection and pulling of the trigger (again no rule mention about a "click") should be sufficient with the model (S&W M&P 9mm mag disconnect equipped) of pistol I have. Reinserting a magazine may bring other safety concerns.



Respectfully,



Jeff *&^%$#

*&^%$, Ohio
 

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Jeff 9mm M&P said:
Jeff *&^%$#

*&^%$, Ohio


Dude, not telling you how to live your life or anything, but if that was my last name, I'd change it.



Then again, very cool that they named a town in OH after you.



8)
 

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Remove the ammunition feeding device and show the RO that the firearm is clear,...

Then insert another ammunition feeding device and pull the trigger.



Gee...what could be safer and less prone to accidents than that?
 

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243ww said:
[quote name='ToddG']Not surprised. "The rule doesn't say it, but it means ..."



So now I'm supposed to take a magazine and insert it into my gun after I've shown clear, even though there is absolutely no provision in the rules for doing so, instructions on how to do so, nor any requirement to again remove the magazine! The rule is safer and makes more sense the way it's written than the way NROI chooses to interpret it.


Doesn't seem right to me. Putting a mag back into an empty gun introduces a whole new safety concern... Now a gun that couldn't fire can. They seem to be taking a safe gun and putting it a peg down into the unsafe realm? BTSOOM? :?: :?[/quote]



yeah, well technically you can practice your reloads with an empty mag at the safe table. If they don't make you do it under controlled circumstances, how safe will it be then?
 

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raz-0 said:
yeah, well technically you can practice your reloads with an empty mag at the safe table. If they don't make you do it under controlled circumstances, how safe will it be then?


I see this as the only possibly reasonable argument. However, I still don't think it withstands scrutiny. No one is over at the safe area table checking to make sure you don't insert a loaded mag. The fact that people can do something stupid and cause an accident doesn't justify the rule, imho. But then I'm not getting elected to head NROI anytime soon, now am I? 8)



So here's a question for you: given that the rules are completely silent on the issue of inserting a mag into the gun to drop the striker, if I have nothing but partially loaded magazines on me, can I insert a loaded mag so long as, per the rules, I pull the trigger without manipulating the hammer (which I don't have)? This would, technically, meet the requirements and be completely safe.
 
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