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I was able to rent a full size M&P 9mm at the range a week ago. I was very anxious to try this gun as I was very favorably immpressed with it any time I'd seen it and handled it in stores. I had to use the range's UMC 115gr ammo. I was very disappointed in how the gun shot. Recoil was minimal, and the grip was comfortable, but I couldn't group at all. I could not feel the trigger reset at all. It wasn't a lightI reset....I really could not feel it reset at all. I was all over the target at only 10 yards. I was really taking my time, slowly squeezing the trigger, getting the surprise break etc., but not once did I hit my point of aim. I have shot Glocks, SIGs, and Berettas before with no problem. Most of my experience is with 1911's and a single action CZ75B. I shot some of the same box of UMC in my CZ and it went into one jagged hole.



I know most of you have had very positive experiences with the M&P's, so what do you think the problem was ? Lack of familiarity with the trigger ? Is it THAT different ? It didn't feel like it. I really wanted to like this gun. I was all set to buy one until I actually shot it. Did any of you have similar experiences early on that improved with time ?
 

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Long time SIG and other high quality pistol shooter. I don't personally believe there is a more out of the box accurate pistol made than SIG Sauer. H&K comes very close, but SIG is almost uncanny in the accuracy department. I LOVE all three of my M&P's. They aren't SIG's though in the accuracy department. While I would never say that my groups are "all over the target" at 10 yards, I will say that I have to bear down a bit more even withe the full size to keep my groups at 1-2"'s at that distance. I will also add that while flyers are a thing of the past with my SIG's and HK's, I've seen more than a couple of Glock like flyers with the M&P without hard concentration. If I really focus I can unload 18 rounds into a 1" group though. My point is that for me it is/was the trigger difference. It takes a bit of time. I find the M&P to be as accurate as my Glocks, but not more so. I believe if I practice exclusively with the M&P's, (which I intend to do loving these pistols the way I do), I may be able to get close to my SIG accuracy, but don't have any real reason to expect much better combat accuracy with this gun for more than 50% less a new SIG. No offense, but if you are all over the target with any pistol, particularly a 9mm, it's likely not the gun.
 

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alzo said:
I was able to rent a full size M&P 9mm at the range a week ago. I was very anxious to try this gun as I was very favorably immpressed with it any time I'd seen it and handled it in stores. I had to use the range's UMC 115gr ammo. I was very disappointed in how the gun shot. Recoil was minimal, and the grip was comfortable, but I couldn't group at all. I could not feel the trigger reset at all. It wasn't a lightI reset....I really could not feel it reset at all. I was all over the target at only 10 yards. I was really taking my time, slowly squeezing the trigger, getting the surprise break etc., but not once did I hit my point of aim. I have shot Glocks, SIGs, and Berettas before with no problem. Most of my experience is with 1911's and a single action CZ75B. I shot some of the same box of UMC in my CZ and it went into one jagged hole.



I know most of you have had very positive experiences with the M&P's, so what do you think the problem was ? Lack of familiarity with the trigger ? Is it THAT different ? It didn't feel like it. I really wanted to like this gun. I was all set to buy one until I actually shot it. Did any of you have similar experiences early on that improved with time ?


I believe it's just a matter of becoming more familiar with the pistol and the trigger action.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Maybe "all over the target" is an exaggeration. But at 10 yards, if I do my part, I am used to something in the 1"- 2" ballpark. My M&P shots were spread in an area about the size of my spread out hand, plus some flyers beyond that. I don't really think it was the gun...too many of you have had great experiences with the M&P. I suspect it is a matter of getting used to the trigger. I was surprised, however, that really taking my time, and making sure that I was doing everything right, that I couldn't get one shot into a 2" x 2" square that was my aiming point.
 

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Jagman said:
Long time SIG and other high quality pistol shooter. I don't personally believe there is a more out of the box accurate pistol made than SIG Sauer.


U've never shot Beretta 92f/s have u?
 

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mity2 said:
[quote name='Jagman']Long time SIG and other high quality pistol shooter. I don't personally believe there is a more out of the box accurate pistol made than SIG Sauer.


U've never shot Beretta 92f/s have u?[/quote]



Sure have...although Beretta's have never done much for me. I know they are great pistols and are without question very accurate, but I stand by "my opinion" regarding SIG's.
 

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I'm sure that sigs are accurate guns. probrem with sigs (for me anyways) is that NONE of them fits my hand that good. their grip is too fat or something. and if i don't have good grip on gun, its hopeless...
 

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I carried a 92FS for 12 years (required by agency) and I have to side with both of you. I own several SIG's and more than my fair share of SIG's, H&K's (our current issue).



The Beretta and SIG's have been equally accurate in my hands. But, I really have to concentrate on the trigger with Beretta's to get the accuracy I get with the SIGs.



As for the M&P the gentleman was referring to, I have experienced the same thing with Glock (I no longer own any of those). One would be okay in the accuracy dept, then another of the same model would be a total waste of ammuntion. I hope the M&P's don't end up down in QC as they capture much of the LE market (they will).



FWIW, my choice for off-duty carry is the Springfield Professional Model. 8)
 

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mity2 said:
I'm sure that sigs are accurate guns. probrem with sigs (for me anyways) is that NONE of them fits my hand that good. their grip is too fat or something. and if i don't have good grip on gun, its hopeless...


Welll there you have it:)
 

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Lest this turns into a Beretta vs SIG debate, I'd like to say I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with M&Ps in the accuracy department. I shoot them very accurately and have no reason to believe that won't continue. I do agree that Glock's have been somewhat erratic for me over the years. People often ask "is a SIG/HK worth $700-$800 when a Glock is $485-$500? The answer is yes and there is a reason. I would LOVE for Smith and Wesson to continue down the trail of all things; Great fit and finish, best ergonomics in the industry, GREAT accuracy vs GOOD, excellent realiability and continuing diversification of the product line. I see no reason why that can't occur and I'm rooting for them. Meantime, they are perfectly acceptable, if not more so in the accuracy department now. I intend to keep buying them before their $550 everywhere.
 

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Well, I can tell you this, I'm gonna go shoot my Sig 229 with my M&P ASAP, because my impression is the M&P will shoot with anything.



Having said that, it should be noted that for the most part we shoot a Sig, Beretta, etc. DA/SA in the SA mode mostly and it would be very easy to acclimate to a short light trigger pull. But I don't really think that would explain the wider spread phenomenon. I seriously doubt any of us can shoot up to the accuracy of an M&P offhand.
 

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This is defintely a case of not being familar with the trigger on the M&P. I rented an M&P .40 and borrowed a friend's M&P 9 and shot more consistently than with my XD. The XD is a very robust machine, but the trigger is different - a very definite reset, but has a lot of trigger travel that allows a lot of pistol movement. The M&P is more subtle and the trigger throw is much shorter. I have had my M&P 9 since Saturday and have over 300 rds and it allows me to shoot very well.
 

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I just bought the M&P 40. Can't wait to shoot it. I am a 1911 fan and I wonder if I'll have some trouble getting used to this trigger too. I have noticed from dry fire that it doesn't feel like it resets. But as for accuracy, my S&W 1911 is the most accurate gun I have ever owned. I'm not the greatest with it, but others have put rounds through the same whole consistently. Of course it's not a plastic gun either.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Sorry it took so long to come up with these pics, but these targets are from the day I rented the M&P full size 9mm. The first is the M&P and the second is my CZ. Both are 20 rounds at 10 yards. So this is what I meant by "all over the target". Would those of you with some experience with the M&P think this was just lack of familiarity with the trigger ?:









 

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Wow...now I get it. That is the a very strange occurance. Obviously you can shoot a handgun, so what IS going on with the M&P? Handgun magazines just ran a 4 or 5 gun comparison and the MP won in the accuracy dept and just about all others for that matter. It's gotta either be a trigger thing for you or the pistol.
 

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alzo said:
Would those of you with some experience with the M&P think this was just lack of familiarity with the trigger ?:
Yes, quite clearly so. In this case you are comparing your results with a pistol that has a completely different trigger action, and one you aren't really familiar with, to the CZ with a single action trigger and you own the pistol so you are clearly familiar with it.



The striker fired action takes some getting used to, it boils down to practice, practice, practice.
 

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alzo said:
Would those of you with some experience with the M&P think this was just lack of familiarity with the trigger ?:


I shoot an M&P in production ahving switched out form shooting a Baby eagle, which is a cz clone for the most part.





I would say that you shot placement is indicative of needing practice. It's you not the gun. The cz platform is a bit more forgiving of some bad habits, while magnifying others.



One bad habit commonly developed with a cz is accurate groups but low. Like you have there. My best guess is that for most, this is due to the really tall rear sight and relatively short front sight. People just want to peek ofer the rear sight. With practice you can still get good groups doing this. if i shoot something else for a while and come back to my BE, I experience this problem.



One thing it seems to be more forgiving about than most guns, is milking the grip. Which if you are a righty, results in low left groups and opens up your groups. It can also result in a more left bias than simply breaking the wrist or getting the finger on the trigger wrong.





Based on problems i have had, and having shot both platforms a lot, and your targets i'd say the following are generally are what is at issue.



1) A well used cz trigger will be smoother out of the box in SA mode than an M&P trigger. The pre-travel is also heavier earlier in the pull, and the trigger reach is longer. If you are prone to slapping the trigger, the CZ will help curb your bad habit more than the M&P. The narrwoness of the trigger combined with the long trigger reach also gives you less ability to place your finger wherever the hell you want on it. If your available options are right, the cz will just inherently be a little more accurate for you than something that gives you more choice on placement.



2) grip shape. The backstrap on a CZ is set up to get your hand up high on the grip, and to give you the deepest part of the grip front to back up high. which means your 2nd and 3rd finger naturally do most of the work of stabilizing the grip over a wider range of hand sizes. The width of the grip is also pretty much the same from top to bottom. With smaller hands, the small and medium grips on the M&P sort of leave it up to you where you do the most gripping. The large insert helps some, but because it widends then narrows again, doesn't offer as good of a benefit as the base cz design. also, the way the little flare at front on the M&P is done can actually magnify milking the grip if you can get your pinky hooked around that and pushing on the side near the fornt.



Beyond that, i can't suggest anything without knowing how fast you shot each group.





but i can safely say... been there, done that, it's you.
 
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