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We in the natl guard have had this discussion many times the last year or so. We all came to the general agreement that if indeed they were unlawful/unconstitutional orders came down we would no doubt go home and protect our families. This was among NCO's mind you, no officers were within earshot. Seems as though officers always try to "reason" with such stuff. NCO's are more cut to the chase, yes/no, black/white. And no, we weren't bad mouthing our chain of command. But simply going over scenarios.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 · (Edited)
We in the natl guard have had this discussion many times the last year or so. We all came to the general agreement that if indeed they were unlawful/unconstitutional orders came down we would no doubt go home and protect our families.
I agree

I once heard an NCO remark that the best thing about officers who spend all their time bucking for promotion and position is that they stay out of the way so NCOs can conduct the unit's business. Seem to be a very accurate statement.

An officer is nothing without a unit, so if TSHTF in this country, in all likelihood officers will be inconsequential as NCOs as you pointed out will answer a higher calling then the orders of some officer bucking for promotion.
 

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Absent mass uprisings in multiple places no "war" will ever happen. Here's how I see it playing out....

Group X starts holding meetings, saying things like "they'll take our guns over our dead bodies" or "I won't pay taxes to our communist government" or what ever right wing wacko refrain they want. The government will largely ignore them.

Leaders of group x call for more and more "peaceful" resistance and the group will slowly start to engage in small scale crime like trespass, theft, drug distribution among the members, or maybe violation of state compulsory school attendance laws. The group will swell to a few thousand members, but will be pretty much local or regional.

The local sheriff or PD will go in to enforce the law and will get assaulted or run off at gun point. Sheriff or PD will call for assistance. Compounded will be surrounded. Stand off for a few weeks that will result in the arrest of death of the group leaders. Group members will filter back out and nurse their hatred of the government, which will again be ignored so long as it sticks to the back woods areas that the government rarely cares about anyway.

In short...unless the "revolutionaries" pick a fight, no one in power is going to care.
 

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^^^^ It started reading like WACO.TX played out!?
Except there were no crimes committed by the people in WACO. The feds made up false allegations about automatic weapons that had been investigated and cleared by the locals, and they were offered a chance at a peaceful inspection, but they went ahead with their slaughter plans anyway.

So, one could argue the Feds do care about eliminating resistance groups before they act.
 

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I agree

I once heard an NCO remark that the best thing about officers who spend all their time bucking for promotion and position is that they stay out of the way so NCOs can conduct the unit's business. Seem to be a very accurate statement.

An officer is nothing without a unit, so if TSHTF in this country, in all likelihood officers will be inconsequential as NCOs as you pointed out will answer a higher calling then the orders of some officer bucking for promotion.
Exactly, most officers don't stick around a unit long. They get there time in a certain position and then move on. NCO's being the Backbone of the Army is all so true.
 

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The other day a few of us at work we were having a discussion about the possibility of another domestic war, either revolutionary or civil.

One guy was insisting that the people would have no chance against the government because the president would just declare martial law and order the military to deploy heavy hardware such as tanks and helicopter gunships along with fighter and bomber aircraft.

Some of the guys believe that many in the military, particularly the National Guard, would resist firing on their own countrymen and would actually side with the people. Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that if Americans did fight back against a tyrannical government it would be in any conventional manner (of which they would have no chance of winning) but more of guerrilla actions. Guerrilla actions have proven effective in just about every conflict since the founding of America.

I am curious as to what everybody else’s position is on this scenario?

Also what would happen if we became embroiled in civil war of conservative vs liberal government?
It may be revolutionary,,,,,,,but war is never civil......
 

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The other day a few of us at work we were having a discussion about the possibility of another domestic war, either revolutionary or civil.

One guy was insisting that the people would have no chance against the government because the president would just declare martial law and order the military to deploy heavy hardware such as tanks and helicopter gunships along with fighter and bomber aircraft.
Not for sure. BUT, it is written some place (Constitution ?) that OUR US Military Troups CAN NOT BE USED OR DEPLOYED against it's own citizens in an act of force in the USA. It's one reason (also in that same document ?), you don't see Regular Military Troups in times of disaster (storms,floods,riots, etc.) being deployed to help on United States soil and it's always the National Guard you DO see. The National Guard is also controled by the state governors in those time of disaster. I was Regular Army. There were a few disasters and riots (back in the 70's) when I was stationed back in the US and I asked why we couldn't help respond and was told that it was against the Constitution to use Regular Military force against a US civilian population.

Look at it this way too. EVERYONE going into any branch of Military service takes an OATH TO HEAR BY DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,SO HELP ME GOD. They DON'T take that
pledge away when you are discharged. Don't people going into office ALSO take that same pledge ? So as the pledge states... Wouldn't WE the People be joined by our own Troups to defend those pledges. Our 2nd Ammendment covers us to help do that.

What worries me. If it does come down to this,what other enemy of the United States is going to take advantage of that situation and come stomping in our back door ?!?!?!? Yes,the time for change IS upon us. I just hope it's not a change back to the stone age.:smoke:


Molon labe
(mo-lone lah-veh)

Two little words. With these two words, two concepts were verbalized that have lived for nearly two and a half Millennia. They signify and characterize both the heart of the Warrior, and the indomitable spirit of mankind. From the ancient Greek, they are the reply of the Spartan General-King Leonidas to Xerxes, the Persian Emperor who came with 600,000 of the fiercest fighting troops in the world to conquer and invade little Greece, then the center and birthplace of civilization as we know it. When Xerxes offered to spare the lives of Leonidas, his 300 personal bodyguards and a handful of Thebans and others who volunteered to defend their country, if they would lay down their arms, Leonidas shouted these two words back.
Molon Labe! (mo-lone lah-veh)


They mean, “Come and get them!” They live on today as the most notable quote in military history. And so began the classic example of courage and valor in its dismissal of overwhelming superiority of numbers, wherein the heart and spirit of brave men overcame insuperable odds. Today, there lies a plaque dedicated to these heroes all at the site. It reads: “Go tell the Spartans, travelers passing by, that here, obedient to their laws we lie.”
We have adopted this defiant utterance as a battle cry in our war against oppression because it says so clearly and simply towards those who would take our arms.
It signifies our determination to not strike the first blow, but also to not stand mute and allow our loved ones, and all that we believe in and stand for, to be trampled by men who would deprive us of our God-given – or natural, if you will – rights to suit their own ends.

 

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The other day a few of us at work we were having a discussion about the possibility of another domestic war, either revolutionary or civil.

One guy was insisting that the people would have no chance against the government because the president would just declare martial law and order the military to deploy heavy hardware such as tanks and helicopter gunships along with fighter and bomber aircraft.

Some of the guys believe that many in the military, particularly the National Guard, would resist firing on their own countrymen and would actually side with the people. Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that if Americans did fight back against a tyrannical government it would be in any conventional manner (of which they would have no chance of winning) but more of guerrilla actions. Guerrilla actions have proven effective in just about every conflict since the founding of America.

I am curious as to what everybody else’s position is on this scenario?

Also what would happen if we became embroiled in civil war of conservative vs liberal government?
Any war against tyranny would be 10 times more bloody,and horrible than our civil war..the big cities would go first,of course.
I dread anything like that..we are so divided,and diverse,that I feel our diversity would bring us down,as we would be so busy fighting ourselves.
This country lacks cohesion,lacks a united front.
Most of all,this country lacks enough people with a spine!

I would pray that the military would not fire on citizens,and would stand down,or join..Cops have families,and I think they would stand down,rather than become targets.Obamas TSA,DHS,and hard core loyalists would be happy to kill us..asymmetrical warfare is the only option..speed,stealth,small groups is the answer.Study the way the Lakota fought the US army all the way up to the little bighorn,and you have some idea of the way to fight..vastly outnumbered,poorly armed,yet they fought and wrought havoc.
But..they had courage,honor,and great leaders,as well as unity.
Do we have that?
 

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You do realize that almost no one in the TSA has a gun, never mind knows how to use one. Same for DHS department employees.

The agencies under DHS with guns are same agencies that we had long before DHS ever existed and have nothing to do with our current president other than he is their bosses bosses boss.

What part of working for an agency assigned to DHS makes someone any different than they were before DHS?

Let's see is it the Secret Service you fear, or is it the Coast Guard? Maybe its our folks with CBP that are just waiting for the order to rip up the constitution and start killing women and children?

Feel free to slam all the politicians you like, but show some respect for the folks that put their backside on the line to support and defend the constitution so you and your kids can sleep in peace at night.
 

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You do realize that almost no one in the TSA has a gun, never mind knows how to use one. Same for DHS department employees.

The agencies under DHS with guns are same agencies that we had long before DHS ever existed and have nothing to do with our current president other than he is their bosses bosses boss.

What part of working for an agency assigned to DHS makes someone any different than they were before DHS?

Let's see is it the Secret Service you fear, or is it the Coast Guard? Maybe its our folks with CBP that are just waiting for the order to rip up the constitution and start killing women and children?

Feel free to slam all the politicians you like, but show some respect for the folks that put their backside on the line to support and defend the constitution so you and your kids can sleep in peace at night.
^, +1
 

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Afternoon LordRahl

Even though our basic government is pretty dumb when it comes down to it they are probably just smart enough to not try to outright start a war with the main populace.

More than likely they would start slowly by restricting magazine size, then restricting semi automatic weapons ownership by private citizens, next they would start some form of national gun registry so they know who has them, then, next banning any weapon ownership, then slowly following up on all the people on the national gun registry list by confiscating the guns that were not voluntarily turned in.

They definitely won't get all the guns but could pretty effectively disarm the nation as a whole.

From there on they pretty well have free reign over the country.
 

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You do realize that almost no one in the TSA has a gun, never mind knows how to use one. Same for DHS department employees.

The agencies under DHS with guns are same agencies that we had long before DHS ever existed and have nothing to do with our current president other than he is their bosses bosses boss.

What part of working for an agency assigned to DHS makes someone any different than they were before DHS?

Let's see is it the Secret Service you fear, or is it the Coast Guard? Maybe its our folks with CBP that are just waiting for the order to rip up the constitution and start killing women and children?

Feel free to slam all the politicians you like, but show some respect for the folks that put their backside on the line to support and defend the constitution so you and your kids can sleep in peace at night.
I meant no disrespect towards any one,and if you took it that way,Im sorry.

I do respect those who do SUPPORT,and DEFEND the Constitution.
I sleep well at night-my response time is 1200fps.:smoke:
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Afternoon LordRahl

Even though our basic government is pretty dumb when it comes down to it they are probably just smart enough to not try to outright start a war with the main populace.

More than likely they would start slowly by restricting magazine size, then restricting semi automatic weapons ownership by private citizens, next they would start some form of national gun registry so they know who has them, then, next banning any weapon ownership, then slowly following up on all the people on the national gun registry list by confiscating the guns that were not voluntarily turned in.

They definitely won't get all the guns but could pretty effectively disarm the nation as a whole.

From there on they pretty well have free reign over the country.
This is another very likely possibility. It is why we have to always fight encroachment of our Constitutional rights.
 

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This is another very likely possibility. It is why we have to always fight encroachment of our Constitutional rights.
Not disagreeing with you, but the fighting needs to be at the ballot box. We have encroachment of our rights because people keep electing people that don't care about the Constitution.

The Military and DHS is not the problem, and they are not going to go to war with the American people as long as we have the Constitution.

The solution is simple, start electing people that actually read and support the Constitution and not people that want to twist it to their advantage. Problem solved. The presidential election went to Obama last year because turn out on the republican side sucked. In VA the Senate race went to a democrat because republican turn out sucked.

Pissing and moaning about the government is not going to change anything. Voting will. If even half the whiners actually got out and voted, there would be a lot less to whine about.
 

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I voted,yes I did.The turn out on the Republican side did suck,but then again,the Republican candidate sucked too.But I figured,the lesser of two evils.
obama won partly because of the weak candidate against him.
Also,the over 100% voter turn-out in some states for obama may have helped as well.
Obama Likely Won Re-Election Through Election Fraud - Rachel Alexander - Page full

"The solution is simple, start electing people that actually read and support the Constitution and not people that want to twist it to their advantage"
Couldnt agree more there.
 

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LR, here's my opinion, plain and simple.
1st, half of the internet commando's, especially those who've never had the "pleasure" of fighting in an actual conflict or war, would piss their pants, toss all their expensive arc' teryx gear and weapons, when the first stryker vehicle parked outside of their house with that big ugly gun on the front points at it.

2. The Afghan's fought the Soviet Union for 10 years using very little more than AK's, IED's and other type weapons. Less than 200 U.S. soldiers actually ventured into the country, most of the training was done out of the country, but the introduction of the Stinger which could handily take out Hind helo's and MIG's, and the hand held rockets capable of taking out some bad ass Soviet tanks, turned that war around and made it the straw that broke the back of the Soviet Union.

It would have to be a merciless guerilla war. You'd have to kill the folks that sided with the Government.

Then you'd have to be willing to kill those in the middle who will want to sit it out, and wait to see who "wins" before they take sides. If two folks are wearing blue T-shirts and jeans, no uniform, how do you figure out who the enemy is...you don't you kill them both. In one case it's war, and for the other, it's murder. Nothing pretty or glorious about it. To the reader, the enemy would be no problem, but knowing that one could be stone cold murder, well you're either in or out, there's no middle ground here. Could you do it? If not, no need to feel shame, but you'd likely be better off being one of those who "sit it out".

The military is "iffy". It has changed greatly since I retired in 95. No telling how that would shake out as far as who they would support. My guess is they would be told that the (revolutionaries) were actually radical right-wing domestic terrorists, and should be killed on sight, to protect their families who are probably going to be the group in the middle.

If this offends anyone, except for you that have served in a war with guerilla techniques, such as 'Nam, Iraq and Afghan, and have seen how they really shake out, not how the news and military wants you to see them, I offer no apologies or take no pleasure in this particular post.

J.
 
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