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Discussion Starter #1
Ok. I got a DPMS Panther Lite 16 last year. I showed it to a buddy of mine (avid shooter) his reaction was, "You ARE planning on moving that gun to get a better one , right?"



I have really enjoyed this rifle. Why should I move it to get another one??



No BS here, honest opinions PLEASE.



Thanks
 

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I love mine! some people are stuck the famous/Original name brands like Colt, armalite, RockRiver. In my opinion yeah those might be better but mine will do the job just as good i think. Heres a pic of my DPMS in .308
 

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When I went to build my AR, I looked for the names i should trust and what to look for... about 500 pages (literally) later, the same 3 names came up for good, trustworthy parts/guns at a reasonable price:

DPMS

RRA

Stag



I used an RRA stripped reciever and stg2 match trigger, and DPMS parts kit (minus grip, and the trigger schtuff). There is nothing wrong with DPMS... same with any field you look into, people will have preferences and will not go that way, and then spread the preference to everyone they talk to.



Want to discuss cars? You going to trade that Ford in for a Chevy, right? Same thing, imo...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks!! I truly love the way my guns works and it shoots great. I haven't done any mods on it yet, but it shoots great. I usually respect his opinion becaus ehe has been shooting a lot longer than me, but felt put out by his comment.



Just wanted to hear from others!!



Thanks again!!
 

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DPMS usually represents one of the lesser choices in AR's. Here is a good chart to show you where they line up compared to a mil-spec weapon.



Remember that not all AR's are created equal and that there is a standard (TDP) on how a fighting weapon is supposed to be built. It is great to go above the baseline, but to go below it is a no go.....





C4





 

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C4iGrant said:
DPMS usually represents one of the lesser choices in AR's. Here is a good chart to show you where they line up compared to a mil-spec weapon.



Remember that not all AR's are created equal and that there is a standard (TDP) on how a fighting weapon is supposed to be built. It is great to go above the baseline, but to go below it is a no go.....





C4


that looks liek a chart grading how close to an M4 an M4 clone is. Which is worthwhile if what you want is an m4 clone.



Mil-spec means it's what the army wants, and not necessarily what's the best. It definitely doesn't mean it is the best for other purposes. DPMS has a lot of market share in the 3-gun world, and you can get nice reliable ARs from them.



The heavy buffer is a matter of taste and purpose of the gun. For a full auto using mil-spec loads with a carbine length gas system it is pretty much a must have. You shooting something else for a different purpose, it might not be the right choice. For a full length stock, you really don't need it. In the civilian world, ARs come in lots of flavors.



The m16 carrier is not of much use when you don't have a full auto trigger group, and by going with different carrier designs and materials, you can acheive results that might suit your purposes much better.



The balck spring insert indicates a heavier spring rate extractor spring. If people followed the rules. Of course it isnt' the only way to fix it, and also wasn't the original spec.



The 5.56 chamber is more reliable in the civilian world, but mostly you are feeding .223 ammo to it, and lose accuracy. If accuracy counts for you (say using your EBR as a varmint gun), then you probably want a .223 chamber. If you want to split the difference, you probably want a .223 wylde chamber. Depends on your plans for the gun.



The 1:7 twist can be debated quite vigorously once you aren't talking a sub 16" SBR.



M4 feedramps are also of debatable benefit when not talking a full auto weapon. But they don't hurt.



The mil-spec diameter receiver extension... well this is one place i wish everyone followed a single standard for dimensions. The real answer for most people is that you want it to match the stock you want on your gun. Which means you want it or don't wont it absed on situation.



Staked castle nut. If you are in the deep thorws of black rifle disease you REALLY do NOT want a staked castle nut. Because you will be taking it off and putting it on multiple times, and it is a PITA when staked. If you are uncle same and your soldiers WILL be using the stock you gave them no matter what, then staking it is a very good thing.



DPMS makes quality parts. Lots of those parts deviate from standards like their lo-pro upper receiver. This makes some people really happy, and others don't care. But the parts are sound and generally well made.
 

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raz-0 said:
C4iGrant said:
DPMS usually represents one of the lesser choices in AR's. Here is a good chart to show you where they line up compared to a mil-spec weapon.



Remember that not all AR's are created equal and that there is a standard (TDP) on how a fighting weapon is supposed to be built. It is great to go above the baseline, but to go below it is a no go.....





C4


that looks liek a chart grading how close to an M4 an M4 clone is. Which is worthwhile if what you want is an m4 clone.



Mil-spec means it's what the army wants, and not necessarily what's the best. It definitely doesn't mean it is the best for other purposes. DPMS has a lot of market share in the 3-gun world, and you can get nice reliable ARs from them.


The chart is comparing weapons against the TDP (not the M4). The TDP is the standard for how to build a fighting weapon. There are several ways to go above the TDP, but there are also many ways to go below it. I have never seen a DPMS AR go above the TDP (to date). The TDP also tells you to properly stake the gas key and castle nut. DPMS does neither of these things either at all or very well



The heavy buffer is a matter of taste and purpose of the gun. For a full auto using mil-spec loads with a carbine length gas system it is pretty much a must have. You shooting something else for a different purpose, it might not be the right choice. For a full length stock, you really don't need it. In the civilian world, ARs come in lots of flavors.


The H or H2 buffer is not really "personal taste", but more a matter of reliability. The heavier buffer increases lock time. While its main purpose is to help a FA weapon run better, it also helps a SA weapon run better.



The m16 carrier is not of much use when you don't have a full auto trigger group, and by going with different carrier designs and materials, you can acheive results that might suit your purposes much better.


The M16 BCG was what was designed for use in the weapon. This again adds weight and slows things down. There are better bolt carriers out though. JP tactical carrier comes to mind.



The balck spring insert indicates a heavier spring rate extractor spring. If people followed the rules. Of course it isnt' the only way to fix it, and also wasn't the original spec.


The black extractor insert does NOT indicate a heavier spring. To my knowledge, only in the CRANE upgrade kit do you find the black extractor with a 5 coil extractor spring. All A2's, A3's and M4's come with black extractors. These extractor inserts are far superior to the blue extractor inserts.



The 5.56 chamber is more reliable in the civilian world, but mostly you are feeding .223 ammo to it, and lose accuracy. If accuracy counts for you (say using your EBR as a varmint gun), then you probably want a .223 chamber. If you want to split the difference, you probably want a .223 wylde chamber. Depends on your plans for the gun.


Who is most likely feeding their AR's .223? I'm not! Reliability (on a fighting weapon) is more important than accuracy. We are also talking about such a small loss in accuracy, that most shooters would never know. All of my Noveske SS barrels have a 556 NATO chamber and shoot at least half inch groups.



I do agree that on a Varmint gun, a .223 chamber is most likely the best choice. On just about anything else though, it isn't worth it.



The 1:7 twist can be debated quite vigorously once you aren't talking a sub 16" SBR.



M4 feedramps are also of debatable benefit when not talking a full auto weapon. But they don't hurt.


It can be debated, but generally not by anyone that is looking at their weapon for a defensive purpose. I actually even doubt that a Varmint shooter could argue against a 1/7 twist once they look at the extended range a 1/7 twist shooting 77gr ammo can give them.



M4 feed ramps help with HP ammo and larger grain bullets. They are something that only help reliability of the weapon. So that makes them a must have in my book.



The mil-spec diameter receiver extension... well this is one place i wish everyone followed a single standard for dimensions. The real answer for most people is that you want it to match the stock you want on your gun. Which means you want it or don't wont it absed on situation.


The other dirty little secret about commercial RE's is that they they tend to be made MUCH cheaper and not nearly as strong as a mil-spec RE.



Staked castle nut. If you are in the deep thorws of black rifle disease you REALLY do NOT want a staked castle nut. Because you will be taking it off and putting it on multiple times, and it is a PITA when staked. If you are uncle same and your soldiers WILL be using the stock you gave them no matter what, then staking it is a very good thing.


Unstaking a castle nut is VERY easy. What is worse is too NOT stake it and then have it come loose on you. Then you start to lose springs and detents. The solution that most lesser quality AR manufacturers have gone to is to use red loctite on the threads. Do you know what Torque + red loctite equals?????????? That is a MUCH more permanent setup than ANY stake job could ever be.



Staking the castle nut is the only correct answer.



DPMS makes quality parts. Lots of those parts deviate from standards like their lo-pro upper receiver. This makes some people really happy, and others don't care. But the parts are sound and generally well made.


Can you tell me which DPMS parts are good? I would love to know as I have not seen any to date. Their barrel steel is 4140 (cheapest there is), they do not HPT or MP test their bolts or barrels and use commercial RE's.



I had a new DPMS M4 (http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/5.56x45mm/ap4_carbine.aspx) come into the shop the other day. I had to ream the chamber as it was a .223. Notice in their specs, that it says they use a 556 chamber. This is a lie. The gas key and castle nut were not staked either and they used a blue extractor insert.



Companies don't cut corners like this to "improve" the AR design. They do it because it saves them money.





C4
 

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All I see after my thread is a bunch of talk about military and combat weaponry. I mean, it is all great talk, fun to discuss, and you can learn a lot, as I did reading through AR15.com, user manuals, and books on the subject (I go all out when I'm investing this much money into something). However, military and target shooting tend to have some differences, especially when considering what is needed. 4140 may be on the "low" side of the spectrum for gun steel, as you put it, but 4140 has more then enough strength to hold up to the pressures produced by a standard 223 round (~50k peak psi) and the heat generated by the round does not last long enough or transfer enough to get to the bend point (the actual technical term for that is slipping me). Also, military weapons use chrome plated barrels and require the chamber to take 75k to 80k psi bursts from a fully auto weapon using 5.56 ammo (over 150% more pressure per shot then standard 223), which are debateable for civilian use (albeit a nice thing solely for the reason it is easier to clean a chrome lined barrel). Parts are openly available on the open market for ARs now, so even if he didn't like something inside of his gun, a credit/debit card and 3 day UPS/FedEx delivery later, will solve the problem and give him a now personalized gun of his own making. Personally, I think the purpose of DPMS and Bushmaster is to provide decent/good civilian AR-15 for people who want the gun, want something that is reliable, and don't want to go through the hassel of paying a lot of money for something that will never see a combat situation while being used by someone who doesn't need the differences listed in that picture.



Oh, and all companies make mistakes... some not as potentially dangerous as saying that the barrel is chambered for 5.56 and is only a .223... but they still do. My M&P no longer fires after 100 rounds went through. Might be a broke striker... sounds like it, but I didn't open it before I sent it off to S&W. Ford made the Pinto... even let it go up for sell KNOWING it had the risk of exploding. A company that makes pumps for the chemical plant near my house came up with a new model, limited testing was done, and when put into use, the pump's fan actually rotated at the right speed to create the resonance frequency of the machine itself... causing it to implode due to catastrophic failure. One rifle was bad, yes... and how many do they make a year?



When I go to war with somebody, i'll let you know... but as of right now, deer, varmint, and green guy targets are the only thing the business end of my AR is pointed at.



Oh, and uh... I think i'd rather use something chambered for a 7.62 nato over of 5.56 in a combat situation.... Just my personal preference.




Anyways, I like and understand all your points. They are all valid and I give you them. I just seperate the "war-zone" from the "gun-range and hunting zone". That is all.
 

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Lwolfnky said:
Wow, I didn't know I was going to spark such a debate. Anyways, I thank all of you for your input.


Why else have a forum, if not for open debate?




I listed what I have in my AR on the picture thread, eventhough I do not have a picture of it... but I do have a video of me holding it... since my only real camera right now is a Canon Elura 100.



Anyways... AR15.com has a lot of info if you want to hop over there and nose around... I don't post there (no account), but I read all the stuff I can get my mouse on... great source for info.
 

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Grimwulff said:
All I see after my thread is a bunch of talk about military and combat weaponry. I mean, it is all great talk, fun to discuss, and you can learn a lot, as I did reading through AR15.com, user manuals, and books on the subject (I go all out when I'm investing this much money into something). However, military and target shooting tend to have some differences, especially when considering what is needed. 4140 may be on the "low" side of the spectrum for gun steel, as you put it, but 4140 has more then enough strength to hold up to the pressures produced by a standard 223 round (~50k peak psi) and the heat generated by the round does not last long enough or transfer enough to get to the bend point (the actual technical term for that is slipping me).


There are three different AR shooters (I have learned). There is the casual plinker that wants the cheapest thing they can get. There is the varmint/benchrest shooter that wants accuracy above all else and there are shooters that use the AR for its intended role (defense). This last group doesn't want as "good as" or "will do" quality when they might be putting their life on the line.



Everyone has to decide which catagory they fall into (or none at all). For me, I look at the AR as a tool that I can use to defend what is most important to me. This is why I only use the best components I can find to build my AR's and the AR's for my customers.



Also, military weapons use chrome plated barrels and require the chamber to take 75k to 80k psi bursts from a fully auto weapon using 5.56 ammo (over 150% more pressure per shot then standard 223), which are debateable for civilian use (albeit a nice thing solely for the reason it is easier to clean a chrome lined barrel). Parts are openly available on the open market for ARs now, so even if he didn't like something inside of his gun, a credit/debit card and 3 day UPS/FedEx delivery later, will solve the problem and give him a now personalized gun of his own making. Personally, I think the purpose of DPMS and Bushmaster is to provide decent/good civilian AR-15 for people who want the gun, want something that is reliable, and don't want to go through the hassel of paying a lot of money for something that will never see a combat situation while being used by someone who doesn't need the differences listed in that picture.


Reliability goes hand and hand with quality parts. I will go along with the fact that DPMS and BM make a decent weapon, but that is about it. They use the cheapest parts available and do not properly build their weapons. if you doubt this, look at the links I provided on staking.



The funniest thing I find when talking with people about AR's is that they have this misconception that they need to spend a small fortune to get an AR that is built following the TDP. When in fact, you only have to spend $50-$100 to get a much better weapon. For instance, you can get into a LMT upper, lower, BCG, CH and HG's for around $950.



Oh, and all companies make mistakes... some not as potentially dangerous as saying that the barrel is chambered for 5.56 and is only a .223... but they still do.


This is correct. EVERY SINGLE company puts out a lemon. The difference or the question you have to ask yourself, is this a lemon? A fluke? A one time thing? Or is this how they build their weapons? Those of us that work in the firearms industry know that the pics of improper staking and other assembly mistakes are not flukes or one time things. They are how the lower tier manufacturers build their weapons.



My M&P no longer fires after 100 rounds went through. Might be a broke striker... sounds like it, but I didn't open it before I sent it off to S&W. Ford made the Pinto... even let it go up for sell KNOWING it had the risk of exploding. A company that makes pumps for the chemical plant near my house came up with a new model, limited testing was done, and when put into use, the pump's fan actually rotated at the right speed to create the resonance frequency of the machine itself... causing it to implode due to catastrophic failure. One rifle was bad, yes... and how many do they make a year?


The chart listed wasn't discussing flukes or mistakes, it was showing how the various manufacturers stack up against the .Gov standard on how to build a weapon. That is all.



When I go to war with somebody, i'll let you know... but as of right now, deer, varmint, and green guy targets are the only thing the business end of my AR is pointed at.


War is many different things to many different people. Someone breaking into my house to kill my family in the middle of the night is war to me! We do not live in a safe world and the better gear you have to defend what is yours, the better off you will be. Taking a training class is also a good idea so you can learn how to properly use your weapons.



Oh, and uh... I think i'd rather use something chambered for a 7.62 nato over of 5.56 in a combat situation.... Just my personal preference.


The 7.62 is a good round and certainly has its place. As a home defense weapon, it makes a poor choice though. In something like a Red Dawn scenario, the 308 would be a very good choice.



Anyways, I like and understand all your points. They are all valid and I give you them. I just seperate the "war-zone" from the "gun-range and hunting zone". That is all.


The gun range or square range is where you prepare for the war zone or two way range.





C4
 

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Grimwulff said:
[quote name='Lwolfnky']Wow, I didn't know I was going to spark such a debate. Anyways, I thank all of you for your input.


Why else have a forum, if not for open debate?




I listed what I have in my AR on the picture thread, eventhough I do not have a picture of it... but I do have a video of me holding it... since my only real camera right now is a Canon Elura 100.



Anyways... AR15.com has a lot of info if you want to hop over there and nose around... I don't post there (no account), but I read all the stuff I can get my mouse on... great source for info.[/quote]



I would suggest that you take a look at some more professional forums as they have much better and more accurate info than you will find on AR15.com.





C4
 

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JBP55 said:
C4iGrant

What can you recommend as a quality 556 for tactical police duty?


Anything, as long as it is from his store...
 

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JBP55 said:
C4iGrant

What can you recommend as a quality 556 for tactical police duty?


For serious use, I would stick with Colt, LMT, and Sabre Defence. Noveske also has some good weapons coming out.







C4
 

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Morgan Walker said:
[quote name='JBP55']C4iGrant

What can you recommend as a quality 556 for tactical police duty?


Anything, as long as it is from his store...
[/quote]





LOL, well that isn't much these days as I cannot keep anything in stock.



I also like the S&W 15A as they use LMT BCG's.





C4
 

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Hey Grant,



I've taked with you over the phone a couple time. I know you like the S&W AR15A. How do you feel about the Tactical Model? I'm on days this week. I'll try to call you next week concerning an order.



PS - I'm the one you talked with about clearing a building. 4 corners
 
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