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Discussion Starter #21
Read my first post. Home and CC are very different IMO. At home I have a heavily modified mossberg 590 fully loaded with 9 hydrashock slugs within 5 feet at all times. Castle doctine protects me. I wouldn't live in a state without it.



I've already said I don't have the case law. Do you have case law where a shooting occured with a modified gun and the person got off?



As for criminal vs. civil, I talked about going to prison, so I was talking about criminal. So was my lawyer friend. But you bring up a good point. Civil court! Civil court isn't exactly benign. They can take so much from you that you can no longer afford to protect yourself or your family.



Prosecutors are politicians. The amount of power a DA holds is scary. They have sole discretion as to who gets prosecuted. If you really think that being innocent will keep you out of court, ask the Duke lacrosse players how that worked out for them. And do you really believe there are no innocent people in prison?



So I'm attacked by 3 crack heads. Did they attack me in a nice open space with no one around, or did they attack me in a conveniece store that sells alcohol where I'm not technically allowed to have a gun. IMO the real world is rarely black and white.



You seem to think I'm worried, so I carry the way I do. I say I carry the way I do, so I don't have to worry. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot in a bank, in the post office, in a school, in Wal-Mart (they sell alcohol) (I know they sell guns too, it makes no sense. See why I don't have much faith in the law), etc. All places I'm not supposed to have a gun, but where I might need one.



What if one of your 30 ultra lethal rounds takes out an 8 year old boy?



This is all hypothetical, unless any of you have actually shot anyone in self defense.



But to say that because you disagree with my position it has absolutely no merit, and therefor I have no right to experss it; is not a valid argument in this country.



I never said I was prepared for a shooting, I just try to do the best I can think to do because that's all I can do. If you know a better way, tell me. What else shoud I be doing?



I don't need my lawyer to be pro gun. I need him to be objective, and to know how to get me aquitted. If I shoot someone, he will be my lawyer. He has told me what to do to make his job easier. I'm going to do it because that's his advice. My advice is find a defense lawyer now, when you don't need one, and ask him how you can make his job easier.



By the way, I guess I didn't make myself clear. What my lawyer friend said was don't modify the way the gun works. So sights and grips are ok because they don't alter the function of the gun. Things like removing a safety, or polishing the trigger alter the way the gun functions so he recommends against it.



I will continue to advise people to leave their CC guns stock. I don't see how you telling people they have nothing to worry about is more responsible than me telling them they do. They're both opinions which could be true.



Why do you agree it's best to leave a gun stock?
 

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Please lock this thread, Bob seems to be on his own wavelength and doesn't realy want anyones opinion other than the ACLU.



Oh by the way, does your lawyer buddy realize those slugs have a better chance of penetrating your walls to wound or kill neighbors and family members?
 

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bobbthompson said:
I've already said I don't have the case law. Do you have case law where a shooting occured with a modified gun and the person got off?


The burden of proof is on you my friend as you're the one making the claims that it's going to happen. I could name five defensive shoots that happened here in Virginia Beach where the gun wasn't called into question. In fact, in all five the home owner/defender didn't even have to surrender the gun. But like I said, it's up to you to prove it to us.



You seem to think I'm worried, so I carry the way I do. I say I carry the way I do, so I don't have to worry. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot in a bank, in the post office, in a school, in Wal-Mart (they sell alcohol) (I know they sell guns too, it makes no sense. See why I don't have much faith in the law), etc. All places I'm not supposed to have a gun, but where I might need one.


Do you listen to yourself? On one hand you're completely paranoid that you're going to get hauled off to jail for something that isn't even illegal yet your readily admit to breaking the law by carrying in the Post Office and Schools?



:roll:



I'm out, this discussion is a waste of time.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Everything on this sight is just an opinion.



I never said X, Y or Z is going to happen. I said it could happen. You seem very sure that it won't. Are you saying that it can't happen, or that it won't happen?



Can you GUARANTEE someone that removing a mag safety will never come back to bite them?



I really try not to go into places where I'm not supposed to have a gun. I try to use the drive thru at the bank. I try to go to the UPS store instead of the post office (UPS store sells almost everthing the post office does). Avoiding schools is pretty easy. Grocery shopping is hard because most supermarkets sell alcohol. But I can't say I never carry where I'm not supposed to.



So I try to carry what the average person in my area would consider reasonable.



I carry a stock gun with 10 rounds of what the Police in my area shoot. And I recommend (not demand) that others do the same.



How is that irresponsible?



Maybe I am out of my gourd. You both seem to be 100% certain that my oppinions are completely wrong, dangerous, and invalid.



I shoot with a group of 7 guys. 2 Korean war vets, one is an FFL. 1 police officer. 1 electrician who competes nationally in USPSA. 1 mechanic. And 2 miners. I'll ask them if I'm wrong. If they agree with you, I'll change my mind.



m4arc, why do you carry a stock gun?
 

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Discussion Starter #25
As for overpenetration of shotgun rounds,



A bunch of us shot up a junk car with a whole bunch of different calibre's and guns. Here's what we noticed (not scientific):



.223 and above blow through everything but the block. I wouldn't hide behind any part of a car if the bad guys had assault rifles.



.38, .357, 9mm, .40, 45 GAP, 45 ACP, 45 colt, .44 mag were all stopped easily unless you shot straight through the door panels. And even then, some didn't make it out the back.



.357 Sig and some wierd 7.62 x 25(?) round blew through everything but the block.



12 guage rounds in general did not penetrate well at all. Even rifled slugs. Although a slug is the only round that let any air out of the tires (but the car obviously wasn't moving so who knows if the wheels would hold up to driving with other rounds through them). The shotgun was quite unimpressive with regard to penetration. But as far as damage, WOW! We even shot some beanbag rounds, some zytel ball rounds, etc. I would not want to be shot with one. The beanbag flattened a 4" area of the skin of the door to the frame of the door, and I mean FLAT.



We had some home made stainless steel rounds that penetrated well. But I wouldn't use them for anything. When they loose their penetrating velocity, they tend to bounce in unpredictable direction with enough force that I don't want to get hit with one.



Before we did that I had #4 buck in my shotgun because I didn't want overpenetration. Now I use any lead round I want to.



Raid a dumpster at a construction site and take what you find to some public land and shoot at it. You might be surprised what stops what.
 

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Bob...what state do you have your CCW in that you can't carry in Walmart...I live in Ohio and you are not allowed to carry in a place where alcohol is dispenced, so I can carry anywhere that alcohol is sold not consumed...so walmart and grocery stores for me are ok....
 

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Discussion Starter #28
A lot of states have strange CC laws. In my state, you can't carry in any place that sells alcohol period. Even on Sunday or after 2:00 am when selling alcohol is illegal.



But we have a hell of a castle doctrine, your vehicle is considered an extension of your home thus no permit needed, and 99% of the state is open carry.
 

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As for overpenetration of shotgun rounds,



A bunch of us shot up a junk car with a whole bunch of different calibre's and guns. Here's what we noticed (not scientific):



.223 and above blow through everything but the block. I wouldn't hide behind any part of a car if the bad guys had assault rifles.



.38, .357, 9mm, .40, 45 GAP, 45 ACP, 45 colt, .44 mag were all stopped easily unless you shot straight through the door panels. And even then, some didn't make it out the back.



.357 Sig and some wierd 7.62 x 25(?) round blew through everything but the block






Your slugs penetrate walls just fine....

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm



Also, have you ever considered that all your preparation for a shooting may make a swell "proof" of premeditation to a jury in the hands of a manipulating prosecutor?
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Not brick walls.



I never considered shooting up a junk car as preparation for a shooting. We just did it to have fun. As for competition and such, I don't belong to any shooting organizations. You don't have to belong to compete. You don't even have to use your real name to compete.



There's a case in AZ right now where some officer of the local IDPA was involved in a defensive shooting, and they're going after him because IDPA advertises that it is not just a sport, but practice for real world combat. At least that's what the prosecutor is saying.



A prosecutor would have a hard time prooving that I had ever fired my gun, let alone that I had prepared for combat.



I'm not guaranteeing that if I do X, Y, and Z I can't go to prison. I'm saying that according to a lawyer in my area who I trust; altering the way my gun functions, and carrying more ammo than the cops, and carrying more deadly ammo than the cops, would make his job harder.



If I'm completely wrong, and there isn't an ounce of truth to anything I'm saying:



How come when you hear about a shooting on tv, and the number of shots is low, you never hear about it; but when the number of shots is high, they always tell you the exact number?



But like I said, I could be completely off my rocker. I'm shooting with my buddies this weekend, I'll ask what they think.
 

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For the Love of God, please lock this thread. Don't ask a question of the forum and then argue points that others on the forum have discounted repeatedly. You have a far differant opinion of self defense that many on this board so cut your losses and take the advise your ACLU buddy has provided.
 

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O gotta say this, if the shooting is justified you'll prolly be ok no matter what you did to your firearm.



If there is any reason it might not have been, then the shooting shouldn't have taken place, the pistol would be brought up, and hell would break loose.



1 lawyer may tell you what you should do, but no need to keep backing up his reasons, we get it. Our own choice.



I'm carrying a 45 right now, loaded with hollowpoints, HAND LOADED with hollow points.



I'm willing to take the risk of the problems with legal defense to defend my family.



BTW I am trained in combat, and they would use it against me. I woln't be afraid to exercise my freedom of choice because I'm afraid of persicution(sp).



Lawyers arn't the end all.
 

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How come when you hear about a shooting on tv, and the number of shots is low, you never hear about it; but when the number of shots is high, they always tell you the exact number?


Your implying that by carrying more rounds, your pressed to use them. You can stop shooting, but you can manifest yourself some more ammo when you need it. And, if you carry two downloaded magazines then you "carried extra ammo, because the amount your high capacity pistol held wasn't enough to suit your intentions". Take into account the number of attacks with multiple BG's and I think it silly to download your mags, along with not using more effective LEGAL ammo.



Your life, your pistol, your choices, and I think anyone who looks at this thread sees enough of both side of the argument to make their own informed decision.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
JohnN, Why is my recommending: "carrying a stock gun with 10 rounds of what the cops carry" so awful that it warrants the denial of my 1st amendment right?



As usual, you are right YukonGlocker. I misspoke. Most of the stuff on this site is an opinion, not all of it.



So I asked my friends their opinions on the subject. Here are their votes:



1 guy, the mechanic/ musician, says, "remove all safeties (any safety is an added device which causes your gun to malfunction) , carry as many rounds as the gun will hold even in CA (17 round mags aren't hi cap, they're regular capacity. 10 rounders are low cap mags), carry as many full mags as you can lift, load your own ++P JHP, and polish the hell out of anything which touches anything else. 2 lb trigger is fine for carry."



The general consensus was: don't remove a safety, sights and grips all ok, trigger job is ok but don't go too light (cop and 2 guys said not below 5 lbs, 3 guys said not below 4 lbs), carry any factory load you want to but 5 guys said they wouldn't carry hand loads, downloading by 1 round is a good idea (springs are consumables, but you don't want your spring to become trash at the moment you need it most), carrying extra mags is fine, practice often because knowing how to shoot your gun is more important than how you set it up.



They all admitted that a stock gun with 10 rounds of what the cops carry is enough firepower to deal with 99% of real life defensive shootings.



But that a lightly modified gun with 28 rounds of JHP is good for 99.9% of real life defensive shootings, and probably wouldn't increase your risk of conviction.



But that although a gun with all safeties removed, a 2 lb trigger pull, and 5 full magazines of ++P hand loads might be good enough for 99.99% of real life defensive shootings, you will probably have to defend some of those choices in court.



Does anyone have a problem with me saying, "If you ever do shoot someone, don't talk to anyone without a lawyer present"?
 

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I do agree that you can't run your mouth after a shooting.



What is wrong with saying something like this to the first responders??-- "Officer, I was in fear of my life. I shot this man is self defense to remove the immediate threat to my life. I will be happy to sign a complaint (file charges) on my attacker; and I would like to speak with my attorney before I answer any questions."
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Nothing is wrong with saying anything you want.

My lawyer friend's point was this:



Nothing good can come from talking to the police!



Nothing you say is going to get you a medal or an all expenses paid vacation to a sunny island full of beautiful beaches and women.



The absolute best case scenario is that nothing happens to you. Nothing good happens to you, and nothing bad happens to you. Nothing is the best of the best, and it goes downhill rapidly from there.



I'd say something like, "With all due respect officer, I don't wish to speak without a lawyer present." And I'd try to make sure someone else heard me say it.



But this is just my opinion.
 

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bobbthompson said:
I'd say something like, "With all due respect officer, I don't wish to speak without a lawyer present." And I'd try to make sure someone else heard me say it.



But this is just my opinion.


i agree with that statement 100%!!!! remember "anything you say can and WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU" they do that job everyday. you hopefully never have to do it. if you wait for a lawyer you do 2 things. 1- keep yourself from saying the wrong word. 2- give yourself a chance to calm down. i was taught this as part of my concealed carry class.



also we never want to kill a bad guy we only want to stop them. big difference.
 

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to quote the CCW class instructor:



"You may be legally right, but morally wrong"



To expand on that. You may be found not guilty in criminal court after a self defense shooting. But you darn well better be ready for somebody to sue you.



Whatever decisions you make in ammo selection, gun modifications, etc had better be thought out before you are in a situation where you have to defend yourself.



He also suggested that you use factory ammo but no FMJ. He said to find a magazine article that reviews your ammo selection and refer to that with reasons why you selected that ammo. Your reason better not be "so I could kill better"



I use JHP ammo because I don't want a fmj to go right through the intended target and into an innocent bystander. I want to stop any potential attacker as quickly as possible.
 

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Some very good points guys.



I will stay out of this mostly, being a new guy and all, but I will chime in a little......



I have carried several different brands of pistols on/off duty over the last 10 years. All of them had fully loaded mags all the time and all were shot on a regular basis. I have never had a failure of any mag spring, period. My current duty pistol is a 4006tsw and the duty mags are as stiff and work as well as my instructing mags which are unloaded 99.9% of the time.



I am a S&W armorer and Smith recommends replacing your mag, recoil, and firing pin springs every 5 years or 5,000 rounds. This is "cheap insurance" per the instructor. We have some pistols that have been in service for over 10 years and have never been serviced (horrible I know, but my fellow instructors and I made management realize fixing things like guns after they break is not good
), they still work fine and they were loaded for that whole time.



So is that why you are carrying less than max cap in your mags?? I am just curious? Just felt the need to comment because of my experience and that I have seen it come up a lot.



Other point has been made except that I will add. If using less effective ammo (most normal handgun (caliber) ammo is not overly good at stopping bad guys) you will likely need more shots to stop the subject. We are shooting to stop, if he gets killed thats a by-product of stopping his immediately dangerous behavior as soon as you could.



So if you need to fire more that doesn't look good either now does it? Plus each shot is another potential to miss, or for you to take fire, or other innocents to take fire. If deadly force is needed it is needed now and quickly. IMO



I can understand that using the same ammo as your local LE is reasoned because that is where your jury would be picked from. But realize that some LE decisions are not necessarily researched, or made for the right reasons. Some are political, like the comment on patrol officers using FMJ rounds, this is crazy!! I didn't know that :roll: Other decisions are budget based, or based on what a neighboring agency did/bought. FWIW



Oh, and you kept asking what else you needed to do to prepare yourself? Not saying that you haven't, but you need to prepare yourself mentally! Having all this baggage about being sued and going to jail and other crap like that in your head will get you dead. I tell all the guys I train to be familiar with your use of force policy, state, federal law, etc. If you know your rights/obligations then you will be decisive. Go over scenarios in your head. Have preplanned responses in mind. Do some scenario based training if you have the chance to do so.



I have no doubt there are some national champions that have no interest in SD or CCW and would fall apart in the real world. They are experts, love to shoot, but have no mental preparation for combat.



Again, I am not saying that is you, just wanted to throw it out there for others that may be new to CCW. I support it and wish or current Governor would not have gotten re-elected, then we would have passed our CCW law.
 
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