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Discussion Starter #1
I know we have some great shooters on this board from all the advice I have received. I was just wondering what level in competition you guys are shooting at and how long you've been shooting competitively. I'm working hard to get up a class but its a work in progress!



I've been shooting IDPA for a little over 2 years and Production for about a year and a half.

I'm Expert in SSP, Expert ESP and Sharpshooter in CDP. I missed SSP Master last month my 2 stinkin seconds!! I also just got my "B" card in Production. ALOT of good shooters at my range in B class so its back to the bottom of the pack for now, but at least I'm not sandbagging!
 

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IDPA: Master-class in SSP (classifier, '99), ESP (bumped at Nationals, '02), and CDP (bumped just before Nationals -- which sucked
-- '04).
 

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I'm Expert in SSR, Sharpshooter in the others. FWIW, my SSR classifier time was six seconds better than my CDP time the last time I shot the classifier (both on the same day) using my M10 for SSR and my Commander for CDP.



I will shoot my .40 M&P until I make EX in SSP! I've got a sweet 137 PF load which works with the stock recoil spring.
Then it'll be EX in CDP with my .45 M&P - I just loaded 2k of .45 230 grain RNL.
 

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I've been shooting USPSA semi-seriously for almost 4 years now. I'm B in production and L-10 with about a 70% right now.
 

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Just started shooting this fall - After my first match, I'm a C in L10 (shooting minor none the less
). I hope to be able to make it to B in production with the M&P by the end of the year, and if I can, get at least close to B with the Witness Match 9mm in L10 too... But the M&P is taking priority right now
 

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USPSA:

B class for Production (73.48%) / Limited (67.53%) / Single Stack (automatic)

C class for Limited-10 (54.40%)



IDPA:

Expert for SSP

Sharpshooter for ESP and CDP



GSSF:

Master
 

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I haven't shot Production in a couple of years, nor IDPA. But am thinking of shooting some CDP this year. When I shot IDPA I started shooting CDP all the time then started shooting a G34 in SSP. I primarily shot the other divisions just to get a 4-gun certificate. In USPSA I started shooting Production, then quickly started shooting Limited-10 and Limited. Now I am looking into shooting more Single Stack and CDP.



Limited-10: Master

Limited: A class

Production: A class



SSP: Master

CDP: Expert

ESP: Sharpshooter

SSR: Sharpshooter
 

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SSP - Sharpshooter CZ - 85 9MM

ESP - Marksman STI Trojan 9MM

CDP - Marksman Para SSP

SSR - Marksman S&W K 38



All 2007



Take Care



Bob
 

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Bob - You should've used the CZ for ESP too.
I use my CZ-75Bs for ESP, since they pretty much work like the 1911s I grew up on.
 

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Master CDP 1911 .45

Master SSP Glock 19, 17, 34, Beretta 96d, 92G, M&P 9

Master ESP 1911 .40, 9mm, 38 super

Master ESR S&W 625



Mike
 

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USPSA



Prod M

Limited GM

Lim 10 M

SS GM



Only shot 1 IDPA match about 6-7 years ago, total clique good ole boy system and got shafted, never went back. Life's too short not to have fun shooting.
 

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K said:
USPSA



Prod M

Limited GM

Lim 10 M

SS GM



Only shot 1 IDPA match about 6-7 years ago, total clique good ole boy system and got shafted, never went back. Life's too short not to have fun shooting.
K - Sorry about the bad experience. Most of the bad blood between IDPA and USPSA shooters has disappeared since then. If you get a chance, give it another try! There's a lot more crossover in both directions now than there was back then.



v/r,



Chuck

IDPA A01966

USPSA A-51222
 

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I think the cross-pollination (or lack thereof) between USPSA and IDPA varies from region to region and club to club.



Part of the issue is that the two sports have different enough motivations that the average guys (NO/MM/SS in IDPA, D- and C-class shooters in USPSA) really do have different ideas of what a pistol match should be. And since it's those average guys who run clubs, set up matches, and RO ... it can lead to a different attitude towards the match and towards shooters.



At the same time, high-level competitors, especially Master and GM shooters, tend to have an attitude toward competition that is much more in line with USPSA than IDPA at the grass roots levels. So oddly enough, at major IDPA matches, you see the top shooters having sort of that same feeling that many serious USPSA shooters have at an IDPA match ... they get tired of the ever-changing rules from stage to stage, the ballet with guns, etc.



My observation, as someone who isn't and never will be a GM, is that much of the stuff you need to learn and execute to be a GM is wasted (or illegal) in IDPA. So if you step into a sport that says your highest-level skills, the things that separate you from the pack in your "other" sport, won't help you or might even hinder you, you're not going to be a happy camper.



I will say, however, that I've seen much more harassment of IDPA shooters by USPSA clubs, MDs, and ROs than the other way around.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I tend to agree with Todd. I see a majority of new shooters sticking to one discipline first to keep things simple when first learning and GMs of IPSC, M of IDPA usually stick to what they are good at. There are exceptions, but at my club, most crossover shooters are in the C to A class in IPSC and SS-Master class in IDPA. Not sure why. Maybe there is more experimentation, maybe the shooters at this stage in the game are "more free"? IMHO its like playing football or basketball. Both are played with a ball but with different rules. Some shooters are Bo Jacksons, natural athletes who could kick your ass in either!



Not to take anything away from either but as far as raw shooting skill I think a B-A Production shooter is equivalent to an IDPA Master shooter (at least by qualification standards). I wouldn't mind it if IDPA came up with a GM class so all the current Masters could move up and out when I eventually get there!
 

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IPSC is more challenging from a raw shooting standpoint. It's also much more challenging from a strategy/technique standpoint. Things like set-ups and position and memorization all play a much, much greater role in most IPSC matches than IDPA matches. It's why you see strong IPSC shooters easily able to do well (even dominate) at IDPA matches as long as they know and follow all the rules.



A small group of us tried to convince IDPA HQ to create a GM or equivalent classification years ago, and they've always rejected the idea. Their excuse is that they don't want the game to become about the top shooters. But it's a stupid excuse. Instead, you have a huge glut of people in Master ranging from strong shooters to world champions. Once you make Master in IDPA, you either have to work to become a top-10 shooter or you'll never win another trophy at a major match.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Todd,



I do love shooting IDPA but what you posted, about IDPA HQ not wanting to add a GM class is another general contradiction that shooters tend to find bothering with IDPA. If they are going to have a classification system so shooters can be compared to others in their skill level they are automatically (maybe not intentionally) separating shooters, otherwise don't have any classes at all. Your request to add a GM class is nothing different then what they already have? I'm just trying to think what their rationale is. Do they not want to single out a "Supersquad" of elite shooters so there are no "superstars" of the game? So an average Joe master can get his ass handed to him by a sponsored shooter. If they REALLY want to avoid this they should not allow Sponsored/Professional shooters at all.



In addition to what you posted about the challenge of IPSC, I find more people that shoot IPSC actually practice. A majority of guys shooting at my club shooting IDPA are more recreational shooters. The match is their only time to shoot. To add to that, if you take a recreational shooter who only shoots at matches, his raw shooting skill WILL improve faster in IPSC just by round count alone. We typically shoot less than 100 in IDPA but close to 200 in IPSC.
 

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AA -- definitely a good point. Lots of casual IDPA shooters consider it all they need, because they see IDPA as a test of their skills more than a competitive event. In contrast, everyone understands that IPSC is all about competition which motivates more practice. In that respect, the sports attract different people with different goals.



You can't eliminate pro shooters. First, it's hard to qualify who is and isn't a "pro" shooter. If I own a gun shop and shoot IDPA, am I sponsoring myself? And on the other hand, when Dave Sevigny was one of the two people responsible for making GSSF run (which was definitely a full-time job), was he a "pro shooter?" He had a 40+ hr/wk job he had to do; he didn't spend his days shooting and practicing. Second, pro shooters bring press, press generates interest, and interest builds the sport. Third, if you get rid of all the top/pro shooters today, someone else will step up to be the next "best" and companies will want to sponsor him.



The idea a couple of us proposed to HQ would address the issue without creating a whole new set of trophies, etc. (which is part of what IDPA HQ claims keeps them from adding another class).



We called it Champion class.



Basically, if you are a Master-class shooter and you would win a Division championship where you would normally get bumped up due to your match results (i.e., there are at least 10 Masters in your Division), you get bumped to Champion. That's the only way you get moved into Champion class. You have to win a major match.



Champion-class shooters are eligible only for Division Champion trophies. So if the top five shooters at Nationals in SSP are all Champion-class shooters, only one of them gets a trophy. The other four (even if they beat all the Masters) get zippy. If you spend time with a lot of those top shooters, they'll admit they have no interest in a second place trophy. To someone like Dave Sevigny or Ernest Langdon or Todd Jarrett, a 2nd place trophy might as well say "you suck." So they aren't going to care.



But what it means is that all the really strong Master-class shooters who nonetheless cannot compete with world champions now have a chance to win something better than "sixth Master."
 

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I consider myself to be "Joe Master" and I disagree that we need a GM class. If you can work hard enough to become a master than you can work hard enough to be one of the "top" guys. Sure I got my butt handed to me at nationals but that is just driving me to work that much harder for this year.



So I don't want another division above me just to make me feel a little better about my shooting. I will still be comparing my score to Ernie, Todd J, David O, and Dave S anyway, just to see what I need to be aiming at.
 
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