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I have noticed that a lot of members are eagerly awaiting the release of M&Ps in .357 SIG. Its understandable if someone chooses .357 SIG because it is their favorite caliber, but there are a lot of ideas that people have regarding it's performance. The expectations that some have of this caliber do not appear to be supported by DocGKR, regarded as an expert in this field. Some might find his comments interesting.



http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tact...t=000217#000001



Just for fun and to perplex your friends, hang a cadaver or if you are short of those, a 200 lbs punching bag, then shoot it with a 9mm followed by a .357 Sig...guess what, there is no difference in movement. Hmmm......



Interesting, in both our testing and that done by the FBI, there was no major differences in terminal performance when assessing the better performing loads in 9mm compared to .357 Sig. http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000432.html



Is the .357 Sig bad? NO! It is a very reliably performing 9mm bullet, but it is does not offer significantly better terminal performance compared with the best current 9mm ammunition.



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Most .357 Sig loadings, unless the fail to expand, do not offer excessive penetration; in fact, the exact opposite, underpenetration, can be a problem.



When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the .357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS, as demonstrated by both our testing and that of the FBI. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and .357 Sig loads.



The .357 Sig is not a bad cartridge, it just does not seem to offer anything that is not already available, at the price of less ammunition capacity than the similarly performing 9mm, as well as having greater recoil, muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon compared to other service pistol cartridges.


http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tact...t=000368#000001



"The statement that the .357Sig, “has the ability to defeat hard targets better it can expand more with an equal bullet type.”, is not supported by either our research or that of the FBI FTU Ballistic Research Facility in Quantico, VA. When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the .357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and .357 Sig loads."



Bottom line is that the 357 Sig is a slightly faster 0.355"/9 mm bullet; it does not have the mass of the .40 S&W or .45 ACP.



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I am looking at 2 separate FBI tests of 357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot compared to 3 different FBI tests of 9 mm 124 gr Gold Dot: the results are basically the same in terms of expansion and penetration depths. In the steel testing, two of the 9mm's penetrated slightly deeper than the 357 Sig's--one 9mm expanded better, one the same, one slightly less. There was around 100-200 f/s or so velocity difference between the 9mm's and .357 Sig's, depending on which barrel lengths and lots were compared. As far as I can tell, terminal performance between the two calibers is roughly equivalent, with a slight edge to the 357 Sig because of its more consistent performance.



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We have found .40 S&W 180 gr to perform very well against barriers--better than the 9 mm and .357 Sig. The CHP has continued to report greater success with their .40 S&W 180 gr JHP than with the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP they previously issued.



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I recently had an interesting conversation with an experienced ammunition engineer at one of the major ammo companies. He didn't particularly like the 357 Sig from an engineering perspective and described their difficulties in designing and producing 357 Sig ammunition which consistently performs as well as their ammunition in other service calibers. In particular, he felt his company's 357 Sig loads offered no better performance than their top 9 mm loads and stated their .40 S&W loads were superior in every respect to their 357 Sig ammunition. He firmly believes their .40 S&W offerings are the best performing duty ammunition his company produces.


http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tact...78;t=000581;p=1



the 357 Sig has nearly identical expansion and permanent crush cavity compared with the 9 mm, not .45 ACP. The only area where the 357 Sig is similar to .45 ACP is with the temporary cavity, however, since the stretch effects are relatively minor with all of these service calibers and cause no significant injury, the similarity is moot.



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the 125 gr Speer Gold Dot and 125 gr Federal Tactical are the best 357 Sig loads we have tested, followed by the 125 gr Federal HST . The Win 125 gr Ranger Talon has suffered from some inconsistent performance in our testing--sometimes exhibiting over-expansion and underpenetration in bare gel, but adequate performance against denim.


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Keep this thread in good form, or it will be locked. Just heading it off before it gets out of hand.
 

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No, its a good question that I've been wondering myself...
 

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Personally I thought it would be fun to own a .357 semi auto, and to have an interchangeable barrel would be cool too. However, the expense between 9mm, .357 and 40 cal is becoming more minute because its all expensive. I think I will stick 40 cal's; I just like the caliber. So, to bottom-line it for you I wont be in the market for a .357.
 

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FWIW, check out:

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/357/357SIG-advoc.htm



I like the idea of a bottleneck pistol cartridge with +P+ performance that doesn’t exceed SAAMI

specifications.



And as a reloader, I could use (relatively) inexpensive 9mm bullets in my .40 with a simple barrel change.



Or to look at in another way, One could customize, slide blast, trigger-tune, shark-skin, melt and bob-tail their .40 then shoot reloaded 9mm bullets without the cost of buying / customizing another pistol.
 

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The good doctor would be the first to admit that the sig equals and perhaps slightly surpasses the best 9mm rounds (ever so slightly)



So as he has said numerous times...it is another option



I had several pistols in .357Sig and I am here to tell you that it is a very accurate and hard hitting round...that being said, I divested myself of those weapons because...I didn't want another caliber and it didn't do enough more than the 9mm



All of the service calibers are similar in their terminal ballistics...arguing about the relative merits is silly



One thing I do like about the .357sig is that you are always shooting hot rounds



Unlike many 9mm shooters you are not practicing with the cheapest wimpiest ammo and then carrying +p or +P+ and hoping your control is there



( I was in a training class and I can tell you that my sig knocked down steel targets with much more authority than any of the other pistols in the class including .40's, .45's, and of course 9mm's)



So...hopefully your "expose" is meant for those that would ascribe some magical quality to the .357 Sig (or any caliber)



However...if I am ever attacked by steel plates...hmm.....
 

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Thanks for the post choochboost.



I don't want a M&P357 for ballistic reasons. I want one so that I can someday, hopefully, run a .40 S&W barrel and a 9mm conversion barrel in it like I do with my G32. Three calibers, one gun.




This is just part of my master plan to one day phase out my Glock collection :wink:
 

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m4arc said:
Thanks for the post choochboost.



I don't want a M&P357 for ballistic reasons. I want one so that I can someday, hopefully, run a .40 S&W barrel and a 9mm conversion barrel in it like I do with my G32. Three calibers, one gun.




This is just part of my master plan to one day phase out my Glock collection :wink:


Right on... :wink:
 

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Hmmm...Interesting read, but then why is the 357 issued to various LE agencies such as Texas Rangers and Air Marshals? I read articles in mags (ST March/07 for one) that talk about better penetration than this or that caliber and that's why they chose it, but your links say the exact oppposite. This same discussion can be had of quite a few other calibers/ammo such as the 45ACP/45GAP, same ballistics but why do people like/need it?

IMO all major manufacturers of popular/standard pistol ammunition are making ammo that's far superior than yesteryears ammo, even of the same caliber. The choice is there for us to decide. As was mentioned before, I like the option of 2/3 cal's in one gun. Just my $.02
 

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Discussion Starter #16
M&P9er said:
Hmmm...Interesting read, but then why is the 357 issued to various LE agencies such as Texas Rangers and Air Marshals?
Because its a valid caliber and capable of doing the job. Please note that I am not trying to pick on this caliber, just the perception that it is somehow a magical round that offers significantly superior performance.



I was reading recently (maybe even the threads I linked) that some agencies have found accuracy improved with their officers when going to .357 SIG so that could be part of it. But just as many departments have reported decreased accuracy, I assume due to recoil. Apparently the FAMS's decision to go with .357 SIG was heavily influenced by the Secret Service who use that caliber, and I have no idea what originally led the USSS to go with it.



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I know you're not picking on the caliber, nor am I picking on you for it. You're making a statement about statements and so am I. I don't think the .357Sig's a magic caliber I just like it/prefer it over the .40 because I don't like .40 caliber for anything. I'd buy 10mm before .40.
 

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I don't really care what agencys use what caliber, but there must be a reason the SS took on the .357 sig round to protect the president and I also believe they must have ran it through it's paces before deciding on it in favor of the .40 or 9mm cartridge. I carry either the .357 magnum or .357 sig rounds. I feel the .357 sig has greater barrier penetration for shooting through obstacles such as hands, arms or whatever might be a limiting factor for that critical shot. I also believe in it's very flat trajectory. If I needed a weapon and there was a 9mm sitting next to a .357 sig, I would be grabbing the .357 sig. I always said that if I did need my weapon against a bad guy, right then and there I would probably be wishing it was a .44 magnum.



Dennis
 

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I like the idea of 2 calibers in 1 gun with just a barrel change and the 357 Sig is a good caliber on its own. It will duplicate if not surpass the highly rated 9mm in all of its +P and +P+ loadings. Being a bottleneck cartridge it feeds better ( I have never had a failure to feed in any of my 357 Sigs). If you reload it is very easy to surpass 9mm +P+ velocitys and it is no more expensve to reload than a 9MM. Besides, I just like the cartridge.
 
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